Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Flavour]

Good job it wasn't a washing machine factory they holed up in then, the Russians would have thrown much more resources at it

 

[Kaka Tim]

yeh the russians are all cowards and all the ukrainians as plucky as can be

i don't think it really works like that

which is why i didnt say that

 

[Pickman's model]

the tenacity of the defence of Mariupol is extraordinary - they must know they have no hope of being relived and a very high chance of dying - but understand that the longer they hold on the more time it buys the rest of Ukraine. This willingness to fight to the last seems to be endemic and may inspire other Ukrainians to do the same. As long as they have the weapons and ammo - they will keep fighting. By contrast, the Russian troops are far more likely to do anything they can to avoid putting themselves at risk. That's why anything resembling a Russian military victory looks increasingly unlikely.

so in one side the willingness to fight to the last seems to be endemic while on the other side they avoid danger. sounds very much like my characterisation of your post.

 

[maomao]

so in one side the willingness to fight to the last seems to be endemic while on the other side they avoid danger. sounds very much like my characterisation of your post.

Are you denying that the Ukranian army has better morale than the Russian one or are you denying the impact of morale on an army's effectiveness?

 

[editor]

Defection is a risk for any family left back in Russia.

Anyway, make them play under a neutral flag, differentiate the state from the people.

It would still be used as propaganda for Russia.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you denying that the Ukranian army has better morale than the Russian one or are you denying the impact of morale on an army's effectiveness?

no

 

[maomao]

no

Not quite sure what youre on about then.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not quite sure what youre on about then.

that's not at all surprising

 

[YouSir]

It would still be used as propaganda for Russia.

So will their suspension.

 

[keybored]

Yeah, had to go all the way over in Los Angeles to do it. Was a long way to trip a Mary.

Did she deck her?

 

[Kaka Tim]

so in one side the willingness to fight to the last seems to be endemic while on the other side they avoid danger. sounds very much like my characterisation of your post.

And id argue that is very much the case - but that isn't the same as "the Russians are all cowards and all the ukrainians as plucky as can be" - which would be a crass simplification. (oh the joy/tedium of pedantic antics with semantics)

 

[Pickman's model]

And id argue that is very much the case

go on then

 

[frogwoman]

 

[Petcha]

To be fair if they end up missing a few games at Wimbledon this year it'll hardly end their careers.

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I totally get what you're saying but these are 'minted' elite athletes that can suck it up and take it on the chin as political pawns on this issue.

Unfortunately sport is always wrapped up in politics just like our professional footballers were during covid. It's all part of the 'Gladiatorial concept of Capitalist professional sport and why they conciquently end up living such privileged lives at the height of their game.

This in turn makes them a target for this sort of political game play. Most of them rise above it though and accept the position they're in, as in the case of Jordan Henderson et al when they ended up as political pawns during the pandemic.

I suspect that these athletes will do something similar as a result of this because they have PR teams who will still want to milk everything they can from their clients. Every cloud as so to speak...

I can't cry any tears over two millionaires currently not making the wombles lawn tennis bash though when the commander in Mariupol is pleading for his and hundreds of injured soldiers and civilians lives on international media.

There will be some top-spin on this story soon. Their agents will already be working on it.

ETA and if my Lecky bill can go up 45% this month they can take a hit too in the name of their Nation States.

It just smacks of people at the LTA sitting there desperately thinking of what they can do to 'help'. As empty gestures go this is up there. One of the Ukrainian players has also come out and said they don't agree with it.

I totally get banning Djokovic from the Aussie Open for being anti-vaxx, that's his choice. These players have nothing to do with the decision making of some nutter in a country they probably only rarely visit though.

 

[Petcha]

Defection is a risk for any family left back in Russia.

Anyway, make them play under a neutral flag, differentiate the state from the people.

Tennis players dont play under a flag (afaik - unless it's the Davis Cup). It's very much an individual pursuit. This isn't football or the Olympics.

 

[Pickman's model]

It just smacks of people at the LTA sitting there desperately thinking of what they can do to 'help'. As empty gestures go this is up there. One of the Ukrainian players has also come out and said they don't agree with it.

I totally get banning Djokovic from the Aussie Open for being anti-vaxx, that's his choice. These players have nothing to do with the decision making of some nutter in a country they probably only rarely visit though.

Yeh but let's keep politics out of sport

 

[andysays]

Yeh but let's keep politics out of sport

For me, it's not about keeping politics out of sport; I'm sure we'd both recognise the impossibility of that.

But this action by the LTA seems to me to be shit politics, given that it involves banning anyone who has Russian or Belarusian nationality, rather than, for example, those who might have actually expressed support for Putin or the invasion.

 

[editor]

So will their suspension.

How so exactly? "What we're doing in Ukraine is so morally right that all our athletes have been banned from competing with the rest of the world."

Doesn't sound like good PR to me.

 

[Pickman's model]

For me, it's not about keeping politics out of sport; I'm sure we'd both recognise the impossibility of that.

But this action by the LTA seems to me to be shit politics, given that it involves banning anyone who has Russian or Belarusian nationality, rather than, for example, those who might have actually expressed support for Putin or the invasion.

i was not being serious but satirising that often advanced opinion

 

[Smangus]

For me, it's not about keeping politics out of sport; I'm sure we'd both recognise the impossibility of that.

But this action by the LTA seems to me to be shit politics, given that it involves banning anyone who has Russian or Belarusian nationality, rather than, for example, those who might have actually expressed support for Putin or the invasion.

The LTA are a bunch of cunts on a whole number of levels, not least promoting inclusive participation in their sport.

 

[Artaxerxes]

For me, it's not about keeping politics out of sport; I'm sure we'd both recognise the impossibility of that.

But this action by the LTA seems to me to be shit politics, given that it involves banning anyone who has Russian or Belarusian nationality, rather than, for example, those who might have actually expressed support for Putin or the invasion.

Nah it’s fine, think of how Andy Murray* flips between Scottish and English nationality in the papers depending on how he’s doing

Blanket ban stops the nation going on about how great the nation is and prevents tactful silences from the athletes


*it might not be Andy, I know literally nothing about sport and I don’t intend to start now

 

[Petcha]

Tennis players are usually spotted at a very young age and transported to elite training facilities abroad, basically growing up in a different country, usually the US. Post match interviews - you'd assume they were American. In saying that, if I was one of them, with the platform they have I'd be speaking out.

edit: but being banned by a bunch of Tories doing virtually nothing of substance in the war is a bit rich

 

[YouSir]

How so exactly? "What we're doing in Ukraine is so morally right that all our athletes have been banned from competing with the rest of the world."

Doesn't sound like good PR to me.

'The Fascist sympathisers arming the Nazis of Ukraine are barring our innocent athletes from competition. We shall prevail.'

 

[andysays]

Just to be clear, I have no interest in tennis and am not especially concerned about the effects on any players affected.

It's more the simplistic equation of Russian equalling guilty I'm concerned about.

 

[Rob Ray]

"Western anti-Russian hysteria has reached such a pitch that they will allow Saudi tennis players to compete but not Russians."

And honestly that's entirely accurate. Formula One in Qatar but not in Russia? There's no real consistency to it.

 

[editor]

'The Fascist sympathisers arming the Nazis of Ukraine are barring our innocent athletes from competition. We shall prevail.'

The "The Fascist sympathisers" being the entire sporting world. Yeah, that's going fly.

"Western anti-Russian hysteria has reached such a pitch that they will allow Saudi tennis players to compete but not Russians."

And honestly that's entirely accurate. Formula One in Qatar but not in Russia? There's no real consistency to it.

But it's not just western though is it? The sporting boycott is global.

 

[dylanredefined]

yeh the russians are all cowards and all the ukrainians as plucky as can be

i don't think it really works like that

Though it's probably no exaggeration to say the Ukrainians fighting to defend their country and avoid being captured by the Russians are going to be a little more motivated than Russian troops/mercenaries who are fighting for control of the llich Iron & Steel Works Metallurgical Plant.

Clearing a committed enemy from a tunnel complex . Would produce a lot of casualties . There is simply no easy way to do it.
"Sod that for a game of soldiers" would be everyones first thought.

 

[YouSir]

The "The Fascist sympathisers" being the entire sporting world. Yeah, that's going fly.


But it's not just western though is it? The sporting boycott is global.

Propaganda works on ubiquity, not plausibility. And it's no more absurd than 'all these nations are sanctioning us because they love Nazi Ukrainians (which is all of them)'.

Either way, effective or not, there'll be a propaganda line whether there's a ban or not.

 

[belboid]

But it's not just western though is it? The sporting boycott is global.

Wimbledon is going it alone on this (in the tennis arena at least). They have ignored leading players assaulting their partners but people - even those who have spoken out against the invasion - from two countries are banned for things they have no control over. It’s completely hypocritical bollocks.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How so exactly? "What we're doing in Ukraine is so morally right that all our athletes have been banned from competing with the rest of the world."

Doesn't sound like good PR to me.

More like, 'they're so angry about how well we're doing and how powerful we are that they've banned some tennis players out of sheer spite'.