Ax^
Silly Rabbit
think they be met with american air forces and politily told to get to fuck
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
think they be met with american air forces and politily told to get to fuck
gosub
~#
I suspect a few seconds grace after the pilot gets beeped about being an aquired target. They can regaffer tape the Garmin once they have vector ed out of airspace
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
Beware of framing the conflict in 'civilisational' terms...
www.theguardian.com
'We are in an unprecedented and extremely difficult situation. But it seems to me that we have to pivot. The aim must be to do all we can to avoid a further escalation (while taking seriously the possibility that Putin may himself escalate, for example, through the use of chemical or even nuclear weapons), and to end the war. But instead, experts in Europe and the US are urging all kinds of economic, political and military steps whose consequences we have barely begun to think through and that have the potential to drag Nato into a war with Russia.'
'Apart from the risk of escalation, there is something else troubling about the EU’s embrace of Ukraine. The European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen – the figure who embodies the idea of a “geopolitical” EU – recently that said that Ukraine was “one of us”. That statement was indicative of a wider tendency in the west to frame this conflict in civilisational terms. Countless reporters and commentators have expressed shock that such a brutal conflict could have happened in “civilised” Europe – as opposed to the uncivilised world beyond. In particular, many people seem to feel sympathy for the Ukrainians because they “look like us”. A few days after the war started, one senior Ukrainian official even told the BBC that what made the situation so emotional for him was that it was “European people with blue eyes and blond hair” who were being killed. The EU’s generous approach to refugees from Ukraine, led by Poland, which in the refugee crisis in 2015 was one of the European countries most vehemently opposed to accepting asylum seekers from Syria and Afghanistan, also seems to have been influenced by a sense of ethnic solidarity.'
First, we did too little to oppose Russia. Now do we risk going too far the other way? | Hans Kundnani
The west’s earlier inaction has exacted a heavy price and now attempts to overcompensate are dangerous
'We are in an unprecedented and extremely difficult situation. But it seems to me that we have to pivot. The aim must be to do all we can to avoid a further escalation (while taking seriously the possibility that Putin may himself escalate, for example, through the use of chemical or even nuclear weapons), and to end the war. But instead, experts in Europe and the US are urging all kinds of economic, political and military steps whose consequences we have barely begun to think through and that have the potential to drag Nato into a war with Russia.'
'Apart from the risk of escalation, there is something else troubling about the EU’s embrace of Ukraine. The European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen – the figure who embodies the idea of a “geopolitical” EU – recently that said that Ukraine was “one of us”. That statement was indicative of a wider tendency in the west to frame this conflict in civilisational terms. Countless reporters and commentators have expressed shock that such a brutal conflict could have happened in “civilised” Europe – as opposed to the uncivilised world beyond. In particular, many people seem to feel sympathy for the Ukrainians because they “look like us”. A few days after the war started, one senior Ukrainian official even told the BBC that what made the situation so emotional for him was that it was “European people with blue eyes and blond hair” who were being killed. The EU’s generous approach to refugees from Ukraine, led by Poland, which in the refugee crisis in 2015 was one of the European countries most vehemently opposed to accepting asylum seekers from Syria and Afghanistan, also seems to have been influenced by a sense of ethnic solidarity.'
gosub
~#
I would have to concede there has been a difference in approach to how Ukrainian refugees and Syrian refugees have been treated. Though as with Syria the vast majority have looked for sanctuary for the immdiatemail neighbouring country. With Syria it was Turkey whom stood up to the plate..This time it's the EU who can hear the bangs from it side of the border.Beware of framing the conflict in 'civilisational' terms...
First, we did too little to oppose Russia. Now do we risk going too far the other way? | Hans Kundnani
The west’s earlier inaction has exacted a heavy price and now attempts to overcompensate are dangerous
'We are in an unprecedented and extremely difficult situation. But it seems to me that we have to pivot. The aim must be to do all we can to avoid a further escalation (while taking seriously the possibility that Putin may himself escalate, for example, through the use of chemical or even nuclear weapons), and to end the war. But instead, experts in Europe and the US are urging all kinds of economic, political and military steps whose consequences we have barely begun to think through and that have the potential to drag Nato into a war with Russia.'
'Apart from the risk of escalation, there is something else troubling about the EU’s embrace of Ukraine. The European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen – the figure who embodies the idea of a “geopolitical” EU – recently that said that Ukraine was “one of us”. That statement was indicative of a wider tendency in the west to frame this conflict in civilisational terms. Countless reporters and commentators have expressed shock that such a brutal conflict could have happened in “civilised” Europe – as opposed to the uncivilised world beyond. In particular, many people seem to feel sympathy for the Ukrainians because they “look like us”. A few days after the war started, one senior Ukrainian official even told the BBC that what made the situation so emotional for him was that it was “European people with blue eyes and blond hair” who were being killed. The EU’s generous approach to refugees from Ukraine, led by Poland, which in the refugee crisis in 2015 was one of the European countries most vehemently opposed to accepting asylum seekers from Syria and Afghanistan, also seems to have been influenced by a sense of ethnic solidarity.'
As long as we don't find the idea of sheltering refugees funny as Vice President Harris did
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Is it true Russia has asked China to supply weapons for the invasion?
Are they likely to say yes?
Are they likely to say yes?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
jam sandwich is out of fashion
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Just to further illustrate that last sentenceBeware of framing the conflict in 'civilisational' terms...
First, we did too little to oppose Russia. Now do we risk going too far the other way? | Hans Kundnani
The west’s earlier inaction has exacted a heavy price and now attempts to overcompensate are dangerous
'We are in an unprecedented and extremely difficult situation. But it seems to me that we have to pivot. The aim must be to do all we can to avoid a further escalation (while taking seriously the possibility that Putin may himself escalate, for example, through the use of chemical or even nuclear weapons), and to end the war. But instead, experts in Europe and the US are urging all kinds of economic, political and military steps whose consequences we have barely begun to think through and that have the potential to drag Nato into a war with Russia.'
'Apart from the risk of escalation, there is something else troubling about the EU’s embrace of Ukraine. The European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen – the figure who embodies the idea of a “geopolitical” EU – recently that said that Ukraine was “one of us”. That statement was indicative of a wider tendency in the west to frame this conflict in civilisational terms. Countless reporters and commentators have expressed shock that such a brutal conflict could have happened in “civilised” Europe – as opposed to the uncivilised world beyond. In particular, many people seem to feel sympathy for the Ukrainians because they “look like us”. A few days after the war started, one senior Ukrainian official even told the BBC that what made the situation so emotional for him was that it was “European people with blue eyes and blond hair” who were being killed. The EU’s generous approach to refugees from Ukraine, led by Poland, which in the refugee crisis in 2015 was one of the European countries most vehemently opposed to accepting asylum seekers from Syria and Afghanistan, also seems to have been influenced by a sense of ethnic solidarity.'
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Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I'm not aware of anyone framing it in 'civilization terms' on here.
I also don't buy this line
Firstly, there are plenty of people who have previously expressed hostility to migrants from the EU despite them 'looking like us' and secondly the fact that war has returned to Europe is genuinely shocking. You don't need to think about it in 'civilization terms' to feel the shock and horror at the unwinding of the past 70 years.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
except that of course war returned to europe some years ago, it's not like 75 years of peace and then ukraine
Seems they have not agreed to sending anything to Rissia. So far.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's very different from agreeing not to
This is what China rep reportedly said
"China’s position on the Ukraine issue is consistent and clear, and China has been playing a constructive role in promoting peace talks,” Zhao said. “It is imperative that all parties exercise restraint and cool down tensions, not add fuel to the fire.”
From the article quoted in my previous post
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
I, for one, wasn't in the least shocked about the European wars in Yugoslavia (although I was somewhat horrified.) Neither am I shocked by war in Ukraine. It isn't as if there weren't plenty of signs of it coming, after all.
Arguably, other wars which have taken place on the soil of the former USSR since the early '90s could also be said to be European wars.
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cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
China has denied the US claims that Russia has asked them for weapons.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
I think the way it is perceived makes it different.
The war in Ukraine is widely believed to be an old fashioned war of annexation, to wipe out a country from the map (although we don't know Putin's intentions for sure, this isn't an unreasonable assumption). This kind of war hasn't happened in Europe since WW2 and has been fairly uncommon around the world since then.
The image of tanks rolling across the border to invade and occupy an entire country is something which seemed to many to be consigned to history and is fundamentally more shocking to Europeans than civil conflicts, perhaps because it raises the spectre of larger scale inter-state war, or because it concerns their own security (as it does for Finland, Sweden, the Baltics, Moldova, Poland etc) in a way that the Northern Irish troubles or break up of Yugoslavia did not.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
right you are - the other wars weren't really wars, or if they were wars they were the wrong sort of war.
mauvais
on reddit or something
That's quite a selective view of post-WWII history, is it not?
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
This one's a war we can all really get behind.
gosub
~#
No, thats the one thing NATO is trying to avoid. Irrespective of how wrong Russia's actions have been.
Maybe, I'm talking about popular perception, not objective reality though.
That said... has there been any war of annexation in Europe since the end of WW2? Not that I can think of...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
let me refresh your memory - do you remember 2014?
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Selective or not that is certainly how it is seen by many and goes someway towards explaining the response to this war.
There are several factors about this war that makes people look at it and go, that could be us. There are less degrees of separation than with many others.
Although I think it is very unlikely I am having to consider the possibility of Russia attacking Sweden and if Sweden then it could be us next. And it mist feel very close to home for anyone is Sweden.
mauvais
on reddit or something
At least: Czechoslovakia, 1968. Turkey/Cyprus, 1974. Then lots of them involving Russia depending on where you think the limits of Europe are, including Crimea in 2014.
That was presented, with some success (I still don't feel certain myself about exactly what happened) as pro-Russian separatist activity, with some covert Russian support. It isn't perceived in the same way as a full scale invasion.
gosub
~#
China threatemed anyone arming Taiwan b4 the weekend. I think there s a bit of a parellel dance going on
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
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