Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[kabbes]

What can men do against such reckless hate..? etc.

Page 32 of the thread, dude.

So much death. What can men do against such reckless hate?

Who didn’t see this coming?

 

[The39thStep]

Interesting idea, Russian speakers abroad should call random Russian people’s phones & talk to them about the war. I don’t know what kind of reactions you’d get, fear quite often I imagine.

UK volunteers urged to cold call Russia to counter Putin’s propaganda

Russian speakers encouraged to phone ordinary citizens in initiative to change Putin’s narrative one conversation at a time

www.theguardian.com

 

[belboid]

Do you remember when the Guardian got Brits to call random americans to tell them not to vote for Dubya? I imagine this one will work slightly less well than that one did.

 

[bluescreen]

Dear god. They are so transparent and so evil.

 

[contadino]

But surely that button would only work if the power was on.

Like light switches only work when the lights are on?

 

[Bingoman]

Russia has just confirmed that they are using thermobaric weapons

 

[bimble]

Russia has just confirmed that they are using thermobaric weapons

Yes just saw this.

Why the fuck are they confirming it, what do they gain by doing so?
I can’t understand any of it anymore.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Russia has just confirmed that they are using thermobaric weapons

According to the UK government.

Could be true, but needs taking with a massive pinch of salt ATM.

 

[Sweet FA]

From a friend in Lviv:

 

[zahir]

This as well.

 

[bimble]

According to the UK government.

Could be true, but needs taking with a massive pinch of salt ATM.

Why would UK lie about it what would they be trying to achieve by lying?

 

[Cid]

Yes just saw this.

Why the fuck are they confirming it, what do they gain by doing so?

At a guess they're getting an idea of some of the recent coverage... Destruction in Mariupol, civilian crisis etc. Know Zelensky is under some pressure for a negotiated 'peace'. Invoking their most destructive weapons (e.g see also chemical weapons above), with the implication that they will use them as indiscriminately as they use everything else, is something they can use to force their terms.

So fear. They gain fear.


Assuming all that is true, and with the usual caveat that I actually have no idea.

 

[bimble]

What are the ‘red lines’ for other countries direct involvement, is it that there are none, basically unless you’re a nato member ? So Russian army may as well do whatever they like no fear of escalating response at this point?

 

[existentialist]

What are the ‘red lines’ for other countries direct involvement, is it that there are none, basically unless you’re a nato member ? So Russian army may as well do whatever they like no fear of escalating response at this point?

If you are asked by the host government to come in, then that's it. Geopolitical concerns aside...

 

[SpookyFrank]

This should all keep the ICC busy for a decade or three

 

[bimble]

If you are asked by the host government to come in, then that's it. Geopolitical concerns aside...

That’s the same thing as saying there are no red lines. If you’re not in the club. So putin can tell his army to incinerate maternity hospitals and the consequences are a couple more luxury brands will stop selling chocolate in Russia.

 

[Aladdin]

Wouldn't it be a shame if Poland were to have left a bunch of MiG-29s around all fuelled up, with the keys in, and some evil thieving Ukrainian pilots were to mount an operation to go and steal them? Obviously, Poland would have to be outraged, and demand the return of their planes, but what's an airforce to do?

Been thinking about the fighter plane scenario.
Is there a possibility that the fighter planes could be shipped in a njmber of parts and put together in Poland for Ukraine pilots to fly back to Ukraine?
Or could the parts be brought from Poland to Ukraine and assembled there?
Not completely taken apart but maybe just in a small number of parts.

 

[Sue]

Isn't that what the Guardian proposed in 2004? That time it was suggesting people phone up ordinary Yanks and tell them Kerry was better than Bush.

Yep. And that went well...(unsurprisingly).

 

[existentialist]

Been thinking about the fighter plane scenario.
Is there a possibility that the fighter planes could be shipped in a njmber of parts and put together in Poland for Ukraine pilots to fly back to Ukraine?
Or could the parts be brought from Poland to Ukraine and assembled there?
Not completely taken apart but maybe just in a small number of parts.

I reckon there are probably easier ways, and I imagine that great minds are looking at all kinds of possibilities. Personally, if a bunch of A-10s ended up at a scrap auction, and someone with a name-beginning-with-Z was the winning bidder, I'd be praising the Lord and passing the ammunition.

 

[andysays]

Been thinking about the fighter plane scenario.
Is there a possibility that the fighter planes could be shipped in a njmber of parts and put together in Poland for Ukraine pilots to fly back to Ukraine?
Or could the parts be brought from Poland to Ukraine and assembled there?
Not completely taken apart but maybe just in a small number of parts.

This also throws up the question of where these planes would be based and whether Ukraine has (in addition to pilots) the capacity to maintain, fuel and direct them.

The logistics of the thing is a bit more complicated than supplying them with eg anti tank weapons.

 

[kebabking]

What are the ‘red lines’ for other countries direct involvement, is it that there are none, basically unless you’re a nato member ? So Russian army may as well do whatever they like no fear of escalating response at this point?

Red lines are a moveable feast. And remember that NATO is the servant, not the master. It's what the government's of the 30 member states think are red lines - the US is the driver/brakes, simply because a) the US is 95% of NATO's nuclear umbrella, and b) the US provides some critical enabling capabilities, without which a war on Russia would be less effective, and some other member states are more important than others.

Anyone can tell you what they think the red lines are, but no one really knows until they get crossed.

 

[bimble]

At a guess they're getting an idea of some of the recent coverage... Destruction in Mariupol, civilian crisis etc. Know Zelensky is under some pressure for a negotiated 'peace'. Invoking their most destructive weapons (e.g see also chemical weapons above), with the implication that they will use them as indiscriminately as they use everything else, is something they can use to force their terms.

So fear. They gain fear.


Assuming all that is true, and with the usual caveat that I actually have no idea.

alternative / additional theory,
They confirmed it to say fuck you, your warnings were correct, your warnings didn't embarrass us or put us off at all, yes we are using them. We care not a bit about what you think. In which context this is terrifying.

 

[gosub]

According to the UK government.

Could be true, but needs taking with a massive pinch of salt ATM.

Both sides have, thermobaric weapons aren't outlawed. UK has them US has theem

 

[sleaterkinney]

If NATO get involved it’s WW3.

 

[bimble]

If NATO get involved it’s WW3.

what is it now? Just a little local war? i dont know.

 

[NoXion]

Both sides have, thermobaric weapons aren't outlawed. UK has them US has theem

The focus on thermobaric weapons feels like a big red herring. I think we should be more concerned about civilians being targeted, rather than with what particular weapons they're being targeted with.

 

[bimble]

Red lines are a moveable feast. And remember that NATO is the servant, not the master. It's what the government's of the 30 member states think are red lines - the US is the driver/brakes, simply because a) the US is 95% of NATO's nuclear umbrella, and b) the US provides some critical enabling capabilities, without which a war on Russia would be less effective, and some other member states are more important than others.

Anyone can tell you what they think the red lines are, but no one really knows until they get crossed.

So it depends on the emotional reaction of basically Biden, to seeing the pictures of the maternity hospital etc?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Why would UK lie about it what would they be trying to achieve by lying?

A better question - why would anyone believe what our government says, without confirmation from more independent sources?

Clue - there's a propaganda war going on.

 

[bimble]

A better question - why would anyone believe what our government says, without confirmation from more independent sources?

Clue - there's a propaganda war going on.

i dont think yours is a better question. what potential benefit would there be in the UK lying claiming that Russians had admitted to the use of those weapons.The only one i can think of is as a way of trying to escalate the war. Which maybe, Ben Wallace.

 

[cupid_stunt]

i dont think yours is a better question.

Well if you don't believe there's a propaganda war going on, fair enough.

ETA - I see you added more to your post, but that doesn't alter my point.