Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Ax^]

tbf id you going to criticise Ukraine's adoption of nazi during the second world war you have to look at who creat the conditions for it to take hold

and that would be the Soviets

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Kevin , I'm a neither Moscow nor Washington type and have been since the mid/late 70s.

ditto

 

[TopCat]

tbf id you going to criticise Ukraine's adoption of nazi during the second world war you have to look at who creat the conditions for it to take hold

and that would be the Soviets

There were Ukrainian celebrations recently regarding the historic Waffen SS union between Ukraine and “Western Partners” against the Russians.

 

[The39thStep]

tbf id you going to criticise Ukraine's adoption of nazi during the second world war you have to look at who creat the conditions for it to take hold

and that would be the Soviets

Why on earth should anyone want to criticise those who pursued a strategy of programs against Jews and Poles , violence and assassinations of Ukrainians opposed to them with the goal of creating an ethnically pure totalitarian Ukrainian state?

 

[Ax^]

Why on earth should anyone want to criticise those who pursued a strategy of programs against Jews and Poles , violence and assassinations of Ukrainians opposed to them with the goal of creating an ethnically pure totalitarian Ukrainian state?

of course the pure totalitarian leadership of Stalin lead the ground work for such a generation of mental messed up men to appear and laid the ground work for the nazi to exploit

and it was not ideology that cause the problems between the nazi and Soviets it was Hitler idea of expansion the German people land that cause Russia to join the allies

 

[The39thStep]

of course the pure totalitarian leadership of Stalin lead the ground work for such a generation of mental messed up men to appear and laid the ground work for the nazi to exploit

and it was not ideology that cause the problems between the nazi and Soviets it was Hitler idea of expansion the German people land that cause Russia to join the allies

Yes but why on earth should anyone want to criticise those who pursued a strategy of programs against Jews and Poles , violence and assassinations of Ukrainians opposed to them with the goal of creating an ethnically pure totalitarian Ukrainian state?

 

[Ax^]

show me where I've stated you should not criticise them

 

[Pickman's model]

of course the pure totalitarian leadership of Stalin lead the ground work for such a generation of mental messed up men to appear and laid the ground work for the nazi to exploit

and it was not ideology that cause the problems between the nazi and Soviets it was Hitler idea of expansion the German people land that cause Russia to join the allies

You aren't familiar with the history of anti-semitism in Russia before 1939 I see. If this is what you call arguing a point you should quit now. The Kiev pogroms of 1881, 1905, and 1919, were they reactions to stalin too?

 

[Ax^]

You aren't familiar with the history of anti-semitism in Russia before 1917 I see. If this is what you call arguing a point you should quit now.

did not stop them signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact mind

so your point caller

 

[Pickman's model]

did not stop them signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact mind

so your point caller

Yeh. The Kiev pogroms of 1881, 1905 and 1919, I suppose you're laying those at stalin's door too.

 

[Ax^]

Yeh. The Kiev pogroms of 1881, 1905 and 1919, I suppose you're laying those at stalin's door too.

hmm interesting tact trying to prove that any daft enough to believe the Russia current actions can be taken to defeat antisemitic Nazis within Ukraine is historically laughable due tot it own pervious history on the subject matter

was taking about Stalin agricultural policy lead to 5 millions deaths with Ukraine but we take your additional information as well

 

[Raheem]

Yeh. The Kiev pogroms of 1881, 1905 and 1919, I suppose you're laying those at stalin's door too.

The true blame: 1881, NATO; 1905 Zelensky; 1919 Paul Hardcastle.

 

[Pickman's model]

hmm interesting tact trying to prove that any daft enough to believe the Russia current actions can be taken to defeat antisemitic Nazis within Ukraine is historically laughable due tot it own pervious history on the subject matter

was taking about Stalin agricultural policy lead to 5 millions deaths with Ukraine but we take your additional information as well

I'm not trying to prove that. Just pointing out your characterisation of Ukrainian anti-semitism and fascism as something that's a reaction to stalin is bollocks.

 

[The39thStep]

Up the Friecorps

 

[Ax^]

I'm not trying to prove that. Just pointing out your characterisation of Ukrainian anti-semitism and fascism as something that's a reaction to stalin is bollocks.

I said it opened the door to generation of angry young men who wanted to strike back at the Soviets and would take arms from the first people to turn up

also make them quite open to manipulation

 

[The39thStep]

Manipulation by whom

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I live in Tavistock. Our local hero (not mine) is Francis Drake. He was a pirate and a slaver. Not a nice man. I also live in the UK. One of our national heroes (not mine) is Winston Churchill, one of the people responsible for the Bengal famine at the end of WW2. Not a nice man. Do the people of Tavistock support piracy and slavery? No. Not many anyhow. Are the people of the UK in favour of starvation of millions of people? No. Not many anyhow.

Stepan Bandera was a nasty racialist mass murderer in Ukraine in WW2. Does his recent commemoration in street names etc in Ukraine mean that Ukrainians are in favour of genocide? No. Not many anyhow.

There is a pattern here. Now I would far rather that none of these bastards were venerated at all. But the fact that they are is largely incidental to the conflict in Ukraine, or traffic management in Tavistock, or net zero policies in the
UK. People through ignorance or obstinacy decide to imbue certain individuals with a symbolic significance, but it doesn't mean that most of them actually know very much about them. They are symbols of resistance and independence. Not much more than that.

 

[Ax^]

Manipulation by whom :hmm

do you need a history lesson of ww2

 

[Pickman's model]

I live in Tavistock. Our local hero (not mine) is Francis Drake. He was a pirate and a slaver. Not a nice man. I also live in the UK. One of our national heroes (not mine) is Winston Churchill, one of the people responsible for the Bengal famine at the end of WW2. Not a nice man. Do the people of Tavistock support piracy and slavery? No. Not many anyhow. Are the people of the UK in favour of starvation of millions of people? No. Not many anyhow.

Stepan Bandera was a nasty racialist mass murderer in Ukraine in WW2. Does his recent commemoration in street names etc in Ukraine mean that Ukrainians are in favour of genocide? No. Not many anyhow.

There is a pattern here. Now I would far rather that none of these bastards were venerated at all. But the fact that they are is largely incidental to the conflict in Ukraine, or traffic management in Tavistock, or net zero policies in the
UK. People through ignorance or obstinacy decide to imbue certain individuals with a symbolic significance, but it doesn't mean that most of them actually know very much about them. They are symbols of resistance and independence. Not much more than that.

If streets are being named after bandera it does indicate that he has been to some extent rehabilitated and it is interesting to note the context of his rehabilitation. Does Churchill being a national hero mean that the teaching of history in this country's fucked? Quite possibly.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If streets are being named after bandera it does indicate that he has been to some extent rehabilitated and it is interesting to note the context of his rehabilitation. Does Churchill being a national hero mean that the teaching of history in this country's fucked? Quite possibly.

I don't really know about history teaching in this country nowadays, but if it's anything like when I was in school, which I suspect it is, then I'm sure it's total crap, completely biased and little more than rote learning and gentle indoctrination. At secondary level anyway. Probably so in most countries, with the indoctrination getting heavier or much heavier depending on exact location.

The indoctrination works to some extent, but lots of people aren't all that bothered.

 

[Gramsci]

I live in Tavistock. Our local hero (not mine) is Francis Drake. He was a pirate and a slaver. Not a nice man. I also live in the UK. One of our national heroes (not mine) is Winston Churchill, one of the people responsible for the Bengal famine at the end of WW2. Not a nice man. Do the people of Tavistock support piracy and slavery? No. Not many anyhow. Are the people of the UK in favour of starvation of millions of people? No. Not many anyhow.

Stepan Bandera was a nasty racialist mass murderer in Ukraine in WW2. Does his recent commemoration in street names etc in Ukraine mean that Ukrainians are in favour of genocide? No. Not many anyhow.

There is a pattern here. Now I would far rather that none of these bastards were venerated at all. But the fact that they are is largely incidental to the conflict in Ukraine, or traffic management in Tavistock, or net zero policies in the
UK. People through ignorance or obstinacy decide to imbue certain individuals with a symbolic significance, but it doesn't mean that most of them actually know very much about them. They are symbols of resistance and independence. Not much more than that.

I was born and grew up in Plymouth.

Post war centre of Plymouth was rebuilt. Due to being heavily bombed in war.

Pride of place was Armada Way a big green avenue going up to Plymouth Hoe where a statue of Francis Drake was already in place. Built and named as part of the rebuilding of Britain after WW2. In honour of defeating the Spanish Armada.Which Francis Drake took part in. Famously supposedly finishing his game of bowls on the Hoe before setting off to defeat Armada.

Both the Tavistock and Plymouth statues were erected in 1880s.

Similar to when Colston statue was erected in Bristol.

At the time this was trying to create a picture of Britain as this plucky nation who built an Empire.

So there is a context for these statues. And a continuity between the pro Empire building of statues and post war rebuilding Britain.

Growing up in Plymouth in 60s and 70s this kind of history was the commonsense of education.

Compare that to Plymouths role in the English Civil War when it fought on side of Parliament. Something in Plymouth that's relegated to small plaque in Freedom Fields.

Not a side of history that went well with with Plymouths later image as a Naval Dockyard. ( At the time I grew up there a major employer)

So no I dont agree with you that people like Drake are put up simply as symbols of resistance through ignorance and obstinacy. As though its just an accident.

After all the siege of Plymouth in Civil war was also potentially a symbol of resistance. With Plymouth under siege by royalists for the whole war. A heroic effort.

But its something I had to go out and find out for myself as was not taught about that at school.

People don't just imbue certain individuals with significance.

Political choices are made to make certain events and individuals remembered and not others.

 

[The39thStep]

do you need a history lesson of ww2

I'm all for lifelong learning however seeing as the history of Ukrainian fascism dates back to the early 1920s then it may not be of help in your cartoon claim that Ukrainian fascism was a response to Stalin.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I was born and grew up in Plymouth.

Post war centre of Plymouth was rebuilt. Due to being heavily bombed in war.

Pride of place was Armada Way a big green avenue going up to Plymouth Hoe where a statue of Francis Drake was already in place. Built and named as part of the rebuilding of Britain after WW2. In honour of defeating the Spanish Armada.

Both the Tavistock and Plymouth statues were erected in 1880s.

Similar to when Colston statue was erected in Bristol.

At the time this was trying to create a picture of Britain as this plucky nation who built an Empire.

So there is a context for these statues. And a continuity between the pro Empire building of statues and post war rebuilding Britain.

Growing up in Plymouth in 60s and 70s this kind of history was the commonsense of education.

Compare that to Plymouths role in the English Civil War when it fought on side of Parliament. Something in Plymouth that's relegated to small plaque in Freedom Fields.

Not a side of history that went well with with Plymouths later image as a Naval Dockyard. ( At the time I grew up there a major employer)

So no I dont agree with you that people like Drake are put up simply as symbols of resistance through ignorance and obstinacy. As though its just an accident.

After all the siege of Plymouth in Civil war was also potentially a symbol of resistance. With Plymouth under siege by royalists for the whole war. A heroic effort.

But its something I had to go out and find out for myself as was not taught about that at school.

People don't just imbue certain individuals with significance.

Political choices are made to make certain events and individuals remembered and not others.

All very true. The establishment in any state will always put up its own heroes for its own purposes. There's always a context for any of this and, as I say, I'm not in favour of it. Even so, the powers that be did not erect Drake's statue to celebrate his activities as a slaver. They would rather not talk about it, or come out with some guff about not judging the past by today's morality. Churchill's role in the Calcutta famine similarly just gets ignored, not celebrated.
Once someone becomes a hero they then are difficult to dislodge.
Bandera should not be any kind of hero in Ukraine, but his place in Ukrainian iconography exists despite, not because of, his record of mass slaughter of Poles and Jews. His resistance to the Russians is what counts. I know. It's shit. But it doesn't mean Ukraine is full of Nazis.

 

[Ax^]

I'm all for lifelong learning however seeing as the history of Ukrainian fascism dates back to the early 1920s then it may not be of help in your cartoon claim that Ukrainian fascism was a response to Stalin.

ok so from now on it's less about Ukraine's Nazis and more Ukrainian fascism ...

 

[gosub]

There were Ukrainian celebrations recently regarding the historic Waffen SS union between Ukraine and “Western Partners” against the Russians.

I ended doing some 'odd' thinking a while back about father-son holy ghost that really wasn't that weird and still makes a sense to me..limit a feud to 3gens. Anybody spouting longer underlying motives and justifications get with now

 

[tim]

Yeh. The Kiev pogroms of 1881, 1905 and 1919, I suppose you're laying those at stalin's door too.

I'd lay the 1953 "Doctors' Plot" conspiracy theory at his door, out of which he was carried feet first in the same year, possibly because all the competent Kremlin Docors, who might have been able to trear his stroke, were either being tortured or had already been shot

When Stalin rounded up Moscow's doctors

 

[Pickman's model]

All very true. The establishment in any state will always put up its own heroes for its own purposes. There's always a context for any of this and, as I say, I'm not in favour of it. Even so, the powers that be did not erect Drake's statue to celebrate his activities as a slaver. They would rather not talk about it, or come out with some guff about not judging the past by today's morality. Churchill's role in the Calcutta famine similarly just gets ignored, not celebrated.
Once someone becomes a hero they then are difficult to dislodge.
Bandera should not be any kind of hero in Ukraine, but his place in Ukrainian iconography exists despite, not because of, his record of mass slaughter of Poles and Jews. His resistance to the Russians is what counts. I know. It's shit. But it doesn't mean Ukraine is full of Nazis.

There's many many thousands of them buried in the Ukrainian soil.

 

[TopCat]

Russians try to break through Ukrainian defence lines north of Kharkiv

Kyiv says initial attacks repelled as Russia seeks to intensify pressure on Ukraine’s second city

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Russians try to break through Ukrainian defence lines north of Kharkiv

Kyiv says initial attacks repelled as Russia seeks to intensify pressure on Ukraine’s second city

www.theguardian.com

“Russia has been gradually intensifying military operations around Kharkiv over the past month, taking advantage of limited Ukrainian air defences to bomb in and around the city in an attempt to persuade more of its 1.3 million residents to flee and turn it into an increasingly depopulated grey zone.”



Utter cunts.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I live in Tavistock. Our local hero (not mine) is Francis Drake. He was a pirate and a slaver. Not a nice man.

The plaque on Drake's statue on Plymouth Hoe describes his trip to West Africa and states that, 'while he was there, 1200 Africans were enslaved' as if those two facts were unrelated.

50% of Plymouth is named after Drake. My school had a Drake house. Probably still does.