Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

That’s the difference between allies and comrades laid bare. The supporters of Ukraine will drop them like a hot stone if their interests do not align.

As we've noted before, the examples of South Vietnam and Afghanistan should be present in Ukrainian minds, not to mention the object lesson of saddam hussein, very useful in the 80s but cast aside in 1991

 

[mojo pixy]

Why don’t you start another thread on that issue if you want to focus on it?

No I think I'll stick here thanks. It's really obvious no answer is forthcoming by this point so I'll probably drop it. But it all remains here for everyone to read and reflect on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Actually yours were 2 and 3,1 came from TopCat and discokermit . Speaking of whom,



You could try telling me how Russia's behaviour is different from Israel's. Which is the point I'm trying to focus on

We discussed the events of 7.10.23 at some length. Absent that the current zionist incursion is to me inconceivable. The zionist behaviour of the last 17 years would have simply continued. I am not aware of any similar provocation by Ukraine.

 

[TopCat]

No I think I'll stick here thanks. It's really obvious no answer is forthcoming by this point so I'll probably drop it. But it all remains here for everyone to read and reflect on.

You just haven’t appreciated the answers you got. I think the thread needs less abuse and fewer derails.

 

[mojo pixy]

We discussed the events of 7.10.23 at some length. Absent that the current zionist incursion is to me inconceivable. The zionist behaviour of the last 17 years would have simply continued. I am not aware of any similar provocation by Ukraine.

No indeed, if anything Russia's brutal incursion is even less justifiable than Israel's. At least Israel has the pretext of a massacre at a party to avenge. Russia's pretext isn't much more than a wave of a geopolitical hand in a westerly direction.

You just haven’t appreciated the answers you got. I think the thread needs less abuse and fewer derails.

Not every reply is an answer. Replies there have been, answers less so.

 

[Pickman's model]

No indeed, if anything Russia's brutal incursion is even less justifiable than Israel's. At least Israel has the pretext of a massacre at a party to avenge. Russia's pretext isn't much more than a wave of a geopolitical hand in a westerly direction.

It's like no evidence has been supplied to this thread to substantiate concerns Russia has expressed

 

[TopCat]

No indeed, if anything Russia's brutal incursion is even less justifiable than Israel's.

Totally disagree with you. Reading that and your posts on the Gaza thread just make me think..Zionist.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Supporting arming Ukraine and supporting arming Isreal is the default position of most European governments and of course the US.

Many other govt including China, Brazil, South Africa, India don’t support arming either country. A position that attracts derision and attacks from some people on the thread.

Any particular reason why both of these positions can't be wrong?

Can you think of any qualitative difference between arming an aggressor to help them continue an invasion and arming an invaded nation to help them resist?

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's like no evidence has been supplied to this thread to substantiate concerns Russia has expressed

It's actually more like none of those concerns come anywhere near to justifying the invasion.

 

[mojo pixy]

Totally disagree with you. Reading that and your posts on the Gaza thread just make me think..Zionist.

Yeah OK. Try hasbara troll next time

What was that about less abuse? lol

 

[TopCat]

US drones turn out to be shite. Ukraine has been buying from China as a preference. US worried its drones failed to turn tide in Ukraine â WSJ

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

. I think the thread needs less abuse and fewer derails.

Totally disagree with you. Reading that and your posts on the Gaza thread just make me think..Zionist.

Fuck sakes.

Call editor a supporter of the Waffen SS again for maximum dickhead bingo points.

 

[mojo pixy]

It's ok, we know by now that people chuck abuse like this it's because they have nothing else to say.

It reveals more about the abuser than about the person being insulted.

 

[TopCat]

Fuck sakes.

Call editor a supporter of the Waffen SS again for maximum dickhead bingo points.

I put forward an assertion that on the side you and the editor have chosen to support stand the Azov regiment who have many members who revere the Waffen SS and their history in Ukraine.

This is obviously an uncomfortable fact for supporters of Ukraine to handle hence the whining and knicker wetting when I put it forward.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's actually more like none of those concerns come anywhere near to justifying the invasion.

Not to you obviously. If urban posters' views mattered to governments the history of the last quarter of a century would have been rather different.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I put forward an assertion that on the side you and the editor have chosen to support stand the Azov regiment who have many members who revere the Waffen SS and their history in Ukraine.

This is obviously an uncomfortable fact for supporters of Ukraine to handle hence the whining and knicker wetting when I put it forward.

No, you were grossly offensive and I cannot fathom why you didn’t get slung out for that.

Then you come along with endless crap that adds fuck all to any debate, disrupting the thread and offering nothing.

Then bleating that there’s abuse and five minutes later abusing posters.

You’ve usually been quite sound but are making a right cunt of yourself here.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck sakes.

Call editor a supporter of the Waffen SS again for maximum dickhead bingo points.

You chose a side. You are there on that side with waffen SS supporters

Doesn't seem to me to be saying 'you're a waffen ss supporter' but 'your side includes waffen ss supporters'.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, you were grossly offensive and I cannot fathom why you didn’t get slung out for that.

Then you come along with endless crap that adds fuck all to any debate, disrupting the thread and offering nothing.

Then bleating that there’s abuse and five minutes later abusing posters.

You’ve usually been quite sound but are making a right cunt of yourself here.

I'm not sure you've read and considered what TopCat says, I think you misread the post I quoted just now

 

[SpookyFrank]

Doesn't seem to me to be saying 'you're a waffen ss supporter' but 'your side includes waffen ss supporters'.

And is there anyone remotely dodgy on TopCat's side?

Oh look, an actual fascist regime.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It was meant to be offensive and it was, that TC chose to coddle it to try to keep just on the right side of the ban hammer changes fuck all.

And you are picking up the fleas from the dogs you are lying with here.

 

[Pickman's model]

And is there anyone remotely dodgy on TopCat's side?

Oh look, an actual fascist regime.

Jesus Mary and Joseph we've debated ad nauseum whether the Russian government is fascist, without reaching a clear conclusion. We can go around again if you want but it's getting really tedious

 

[Pickman's model]

It was meant to be offensive and it was, that TC chose to coddle it to try to keep just on the right side of the ban hammer changes fuck all.

And you are picking up the fleas from the dogs you are lying with here.

Just in point of fact why do you consider it says, as you declare, that editor is a waffen ss supporter? I'm sure if it really said that TopCat would have been hoofed off the boards

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Just in point of fact why do you consider it says, as you declare, that editor is a waffen ss supporter? I'm sure if it really said that TopCat would have been hoofed off the boards

You are not thick. You know full well what TC meant there and why he chose to write that in the way he did.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Jesus Mary and Joseph we've debated ad nauseum whether the Russian government is fascist, without reaching a clear conclusion. We can go around again if you want but it's getting really tedious

It's not up for debate. Not by you anyway. I'll stick with the views of Russians and Ukrainians thanks.

 

[Pickman's model]

You are not thick. You know full well what TC meant there and why he chose to write that in the way he did.

If you won't say why you ascribe the meaning you did then there's no point continuing this. For me it's an uncontroversial post, stating a simple fact - that there are waffen ss supporters on the Ukrainian side. I feel the post has been blown out of all proportion and people desiring offence have mischaracterised it to provide some.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not up for debate. Not by you anyway. I'll stick with the views of Russians and Ukrainians thanks.

Everything's up for debate here, these are after all discussion boards. But you'll simply repeat the same tired points and I'll bring out points doubtless made by someone else and it'll go on far longer than an episode of the magic roundabout. I'm inclined to agree with radio free Europe's experts, which isn't to say putin is a jolly nice chap but that he is not running a fascist regime Nasty, Repressive, Aggressive -- Yes. But Is Russia Fascist? Experts Say 'No.'

 

[editor]

Several scholars have posited that Russia has transformed into a fascist state, or that fascism best describes the Russian political system, especially following the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Ruscism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ruscism, also known as rashism, russism or simply Russian fascism, is the ideology that forms the backbone of Vladimir Putin’s decades-long dictatorial rule. The term was coined by journalists to describe Russian ultranationalism in Chechnya and Georgia in the late 1990s. However, it began to crystallise into a fully-fledged ideology, complete with an omnipresent symbol – the Latin letter Z – after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.

Ruscist ideology undoubtedly has deep fascist roots. Its foundations were laid by Russian political ultranationalist thinker Ivan Ilyin (1883–1954), whose work Putin has frequently referenced in speeches. More recently, Putin has been inspired by the works of modern far-right thinkers Alexander Dugin and Timofey Sergeytsev. The latter published an article in April 2022 calling for the total destruction of the Ukrainian state and its national identity.

Ruscism, like other forms of fascism, upholds an ultranationalist and dictatorial political system with a strong supreme leader who demands complete obedience from citizens (including all those living in Russian speaking territories).

Russian fascism: the six principles of Putin’s nationalist ideology

Putin’s ideological propaganda leans heavily on Russian history

theconversation.com

Here's what a professor of history at Yale University and the author of many books on fascism, totalitarianism and European history says: .

We Should Say It. Russia Is Fascist.​

https://archive.ph/iZCnu

 

[Cid]

Everything's up for debate here, these are after all discussion boards. But you'll simply repeat the same tired points and I'll bring out points doubtless made by someone else and it'll go on far longer than an episode of the magic roundabout. I'm inclined to agree with radio free Europe's experts, which isn't to say putin is a jolly nice chap but that he is not running a fascist regime Nasty, Repressive, Aggressive -- Yes. But Is Russia Fascist? Experts Say 'No.'

'The nearest analogue to fascism found in a major country since that time' then. The 'well acksherlys' you engage in here, ffs.

(sacks off thread again, cba).

 

[SpookyFrank]

Everything's up for debate here, these are after all discussion boards. But you'll simply repeat the same tired points and I'll bring out points doubtless made by someone else and it'll go on far longer than an episode of the magic roundabout. I'm inclined to agree with radio free Europe's experts, which isn't to say putin is a jolly nice chap but that he is not running a fascist regime Nasty, Repressive, Aggressive -- Yes. But Is Russia Fascist? Experts Say 'No.'

If I want a quote from Professor Hillary Fucknut at the university of North Dakota I'll look it up myself. You got anything from Russians or Ukrainians? Anything derived from lived experience?

 

[Pickman's model]

'The nearest analogue to fascism found in a major country since that time' then. The 'well acksherlys' you engage in here, ffs.

(sacks off thread again, cba).

It's like trump was never president or the United states a major country. There is a genuine fascist in charge in Italy but that country too has had its status downgraded