planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Wtf does Lawrence have to do to get a game?
Moeen at Headingley
7 wickets in 9 innings at 59.
So his bowling isn't going to help.
And I know who the better batter is.
The Ashes 2023
- Thread starter WhyLikeThis
- Start date
Wtf does Lawrence have to do to get a game?
Moeen at Headingley
7 wickets in 9 innings at 59.
So his bowling isn't going to help.
And I know who the better batter is.
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
I can understand the decision. Moeen can keep his head together on big occasions. I really like Lawrence but he’s young and could get caught up in the moment.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I'll give you Woakes as a decent number 8 but you've still got a potentially very shaky lower middle order, reasonable eight, tail. It's not a stable looking lineup to me.
Anyway are we all done with being outraged on behalf on Ben Foakes now? On recent form he's got a better claim than Lawrence as a specialist batsman let alone his keeping.
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
…plus Mo is currently rocking that bucket hat
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
"Sorry Dan but we decided to include Pope with his dislocated shoulder because that still makes him better than you. And anyway, we're going to include a bloke who's played one red ball game in 2 years because he can bowl (ignoring the ripped finger and only 7 wickets at 59 at Headingley). He's obviously not as good as you with the bat but he's a mate and anyway aren't you joining Surrey next year? There's your chance."
Winds me up a lot more than a legitimate stumping.
Winds me up a lot more than a legitimate stumping.
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
It may well be the kind thing to do. If England lose at Headingley, Lawrence could do with not being associated with that.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It is weird though. Lawrence was playing bazball before bazball. And can't get a bazball game.
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
It’ll come, Stokes rates him. We knew getting in the middle order was going to be tough. Look what Brook had to do to bagsie his spot.
I’d like to see him captain the test side.
I’d like to see him captain the test side.
Brook should captain. He's got the cockiness required.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I don't see it as weird at all. Fact is he's got a pretty poor test record, a mediocre first class record, and an atrocious first class record over last season. I think they do like him and that approach you're talking about is what gets him as close to the side as he is but he'd be a bit of a punt as a selection. I've no problem with them trying him but I find the idea he's particularly hard done by pretty weird tbh. And obviously there are others who have been picked and haven't done that well but equally there are players who aren't in the squad who could just as well be.
A particularly funny example of the hypocrisy and the fact they'd all do it. The Bairstow interview is the icing on the cake!
Watch: The delayed Jonny Bairstow stumping of Samit Patel that has been compared to Carey dismissal | Ashes 2023
Watch: Jonny Bairstow stumped Samit Patel after taking a brief pause in a County Championship game in 2014, a dismissal that is being compared to Alex Carey’s stumping of Bairstow in the second Ashes Test at Lord’s.You can bet on the 2023 Ashes with our Match Centre partners, bet365.
wisden.com
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
Those. Two. Incidents. Are. Not. The. Same.A particularly funny example of the hypocrisy and the fact they'd all do it. The Bairstow interview is the icing on the cake!
Watch: The delayed Jonny Bairstow stumping of Samit Patel that has been compared to Carey dismissal | Ashes 2023
Watch: Jonny Bairstow stumped Samit Patel after taking a brief pause in a County Championship game in 2014, a dismissal that is being compared to Alex Carey’s stumping of Bairstow in the second Ashes Test at Lord’s.You can bet on the 2023 Ashes with our Match Centre partners, bet365.
One is about the transferral of weight at the end of playing/leaving the ball. One is about going for a wander after having 100% completed his involvement with the ball in play.
Say it again for the hard of thinking at the back. Dozy, yes. Out in terms of the laws of the game, yes. Good cricket by the Aussies? Absolutely not.
That’s even shittier than his stumping and took far less skill to do.
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
I'll take things that didn't happen for 500 please, Travis. "Bloody oath I would" sounds a suspiciously Australian thing for a Yorkshireman to say
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It should all be checkable. If that happened, it's on video somewhere. I can believe it happened. While I do think Stokes would have withdrawn that kind of appeal, I also think most captains wouldn't, and Bairstow is probably the type who would claim it.I'll take things that didn't happen for 500 please, Travis. "Bloody oath I would" sounds a suspiciously Australian thing for a Yorkshireman to say
Anyway, boring now. Bottom line is that Bairstow oathed up. Whatever the rights and wrongs of everything else, he needs to own that.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
They're not the same, but there is a certain family resemblance. Samit had finished his shot and mentally switched off, and was dozy to lift his foot as he had no need to. Bairstow was dozy to scrape the line and wander off without checking where the ball was first (it was on its way slowly towards the stumps at that moment, which he'd have seen easily enough if he'd turned around).
I can see both sides of this one. Not sure where I stand other than that we should probably all forget about it, and Jonny certainly won't ever be out like that again.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Yeah I can see one big difference for a start. Patel holds his foot down for a good 5 seconds to allow the fielding side to finish their fielding. That's 5 seconds more than Bairstow gave Carey. But then he made the same mistake of assumption rather than looking.
Lawrence has been hard done by. Over half his tests were against the top two teams in the world at the time, and he arguably did ok, considering Pope and others have been given 30 plus tests to 'find their rhythm'. Three of Lawrence's other tests were on the ridiculous ill-fated tour of the W.Indies where he scored a decent 91 in his 189 runs in the first 2 tests. He then got 8 and 0 in the last (and his last) test. Other scores in that game:
Crawley 7 and 8
Root 0 and 5
Stokes 2 and 4
Bairstow 0 and 22
Foakes 7 and 2
I'm genuinely interested Monkeygrinder's Organ who you think is on the list, unused, unlucky not to get a chance yet.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Well I'm definitely not an expert on the County game but players like Sam Hain or Josh Bohannon have done much better than Lawrence over recent years and have better career records as well. Or if you want to go super Bazball someone like Liam Livingstone - I'd see him more as a short form player but his FC record is still better than Lawrence's.
Like I say I've no problem at all with them giving Lawrence another shot but I just can't see the 'he's been super hard done by' angle at all.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Just as a more general point, one thing I think hasn't been particularly helpful in English cricket for quite a lot of years is the idea of the player who's somehow miles better suited to Test Cricket than they are to FC cricket. It seems to go back to Vaughan and Trescothick who I think did end up with marginally better test records than they had FC records but generally, Test cricket is harder isn't it. So if you pick someone with a career FC average of say 35, it's not surprising if they end up with a Test average that's lower than that.
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
For me the one who's been hard done by is Foakes, again. Getting Bairstow back in the team was a given, but he was only given the gloves because the top 6 was set (possible exception of Crawley, but the logic of not shoe-horning a middle order batter in to open has at least some merit).
Lawrence for Pope is the least disruptive swap in terms of the makeup of the side as compared to these 2 Ashes tests just gone, but Foakes wouldn't have been that major either; simply turning Bairstow for Pope into a specialist batter swap from the side that was winning so many matches before this series.
Lawrence for Pope is the least disruptive swap in terms of the makeup of the side as compared to these 2 Ashes tests just gone, but Foakes wouldn't have been that major either; simply turning Bairstow for Pope into a specialist batter swap from the side that was winning so many matches before this series.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Yes but calling for Foakes to be in is about as useful as calling for Crawley to be dropped.
One thing about those averages Monkeygrinder's Organ is it depends where that average was built. Pope averages 50 because of the Oval. For too long we've picked players because they are good at the Oval.
Lawrence looks like he belongs - until he doesn't. I hope he takes his chance...one day.
Just been reading about Duckett. Bit of a loose cannon even by his own account. Hints of a drink problem. I hope he holds it together, and England help him, because he is one I rate.
One thing about those averages Monkeygrinder's Organ is it depends where that average was built. Pope averages 50 because of the Oval. For too long we've picked players because they are good at the Oval.
Lawrence looks like he belongs - until he doesn't. I hope he takes his chance...one day.
Just been reading about Duckett. Bit of a loose cannon even by his own account. Hints of a drink problem. I hope he holds it together, and England help him, because he is one I rate.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
The fact he got banned from driving for amongst other things putting his car off the road. 2018 I think.
He's also the one who poured beer over Anderson.
He's a very good little player. He's totally locked in for me. Those guys all enjoy a tipple anyway. Doesn't seem to affect his game.
Crawley, yada yada... one or two beautiful innings and then nothing. He can't be dropped now though, the leaders have too much capital invested in him.
Crawley, yada yada... one or two beautiful innings and then nothing. He can't be dropped now though, the leaders have too much capital invested in him.
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not cool how you post, GL.
Express an opinion and stop serially quoting people like they're on trial.
Express an opinion and stop serially quoting people like they're on trial.
Zapp Brannigan
Built like a steakhouse, handles like a bistro
Team for Headingley:
Duckett
Crawley
Brook
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Moeen
Woakes
Wood
Robinson
Broad
Replacing Pope's batting with a combo of Moeen and Woakes. Wood for Tongue as the pace option, Woakes for Anderson.
On one hand - it's a team with 7 recognised batters (counting Moeen is a bit of a stretch nowadays but he's played Tests at the top of the order) and no real number 11 types, and also a team with 6 recognised Test bowlers (+ Root). On the other hand, it still somehow feels unbalanced to me and I can't quite put my finger on why.
Duckett
Crawley
Brook
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Moeen
Woakes
Wood
Robinson
Broad
Replacing Pope's batting with a combo of Moeen and Woakes. Wood for Tongue as the pace option, Woakes for Anderson.
On one hand - it's a team with 7 recognised batters (counting Moeen is a bit of a stretch nowadays but he's played Tests at the top of the order) and no real number 11 types, and also a team with 6 recognised Test bowlers (+ Root). On the other hand, it still somehow feels unbalanced to me and I can't quite put my finger on why.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Tend to agree GL. For what it's worth, I think posting links and stories is fine on some threads. You do a great job ipulling things together on the Filth thread. But if you want to argue with someone, best to just do it. Anyway, up to you.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I think it's because you've got Bairstow now in the top six but still keeping wicket which looks a potential weakness, plus then Moeen who, particularly at this stage in his career and with licence to swing at it, looks good for a nice looking 15-20 most likely. They're both a place too high I'd say (or Bairstow would be fine with Foakes keeping at seven).
It looks to me like the extra bowler has been crowbarred in a bit because they don't trust the fitness of Stokes and/or Moeen to bowl.
ETA: It's Woakes who stands out as a bit of a fudged selection I think. It looks like they're hoping he can do enough batting and bowling to just about cover for the gaps elsewhere IMO.
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