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Currrently saying 62 Junts Percy, 25 Ciudadanos, 17 PSOE, PP 11, Yes Pot 10, Cup 10...

PP had 19 in previous parl tho. I think.

Junts Percy had 71 before. Cup only had 3.

If it stays like this i think thats it for independence. Big winners are Ciudadanos.
 
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It has been interesting to see Project Fear en español, and it looks like it has failed.

Other conditions are of course different, the major difference being that the Madrid government does not recognise these elections as a plebiscite on independence and they are not going to accept a unilateral declaration of independence either.
 
If it stays like this i think thats it for independence. Big winners are Ciudadanos.

Yes.

As the opinion polls suggested, it looks like the separatists have a majority, but not a majority of the votes. At the moment it's looking like about 48% of the vote.

Sí que es Pot have done less well and and PSC have done better than expected.
 
It has been interesting to see Project Fear en español, and it looks like it has failed.

Other conditions are of course different, the major difference being that the Madrid government does not recognise these elections as a plebiscite on independence and they are not going to accept a unilateral declaration of independence either.

But the independence folks are doing worse...el pato es muerte.
 
But the independence folks are doing worse...el pato es muerte.

The poll on El País has the pro-independence parties with a majority with 56,37% of the votes counted. Are they really not going to declare independence unless they get 50%+ of the vote?
 
would I be right in saying this is who people vote for if they agree with podemos but dislike the radicalism?

They are basically a newer Partido Popular untainted (so far) by the corruption scandals that most people associate the Partido Popular and PSOE. They are neoliberals but, unlike the PP, they are social liberals and aren't associated with Francoism like the PP are since they are at least in part the successor party to Franco's regime.
 
would I be right in saying this is who people vote for if they agree with podemos but dislike the radicalism?
Yeah. They are kind of like the staff of the Economist, also they are young and quite fit.

J-Ed, y they will win, Cup the `anti-cap, feminist` independence people are going from 3 to 10. But its a pretty titchy win. Not as big as Indies had a couple of years ago.
 
One of the unknown features of the situation - or at least unknown by me - is what Artur Mas' intentions really are. I don't really doubt that ERC and CUP are gung ho for independence, but my guess is that Mas, though he probably aspires to lead a new state, intends to use this election as a springboard to gain greater autonomy within Spain. I doubt we are going to see UDI in the near future.

Mas cannot negotiate greater autonomy, let alone independence, with Rajoy. Rajoy's govt has inadvertently promoted pro-independence feeling in Catalonia and the scare-mongering during the campaign may have been counter-productive, but there is no way he is now going to soften his position. In fact, sad to say, his hard line is probably going to help him electorally in much of Spain. There are lots of people who believe the Catalans have no right to self-determination and I guess they like Rajoy's line.

The only way such negotiations could usefully take place would be if Spain kicks PP out in the general election in December. A new government created by a PSOE-Podemos deal could negotiate - and would quite rightly look for a broader constitutional settlement.
 
PP have got a decent kicking tonight, from 19 to 11, less votes than the Pod-firm. Amazed they get 11 tbh.

Now Junts Percy 62, Ciudadanos Cunts Basically 25, PSOE 16, Pod 11, PP 11, Cup 10. 91pc counted.
 
Following the Público live feed now, Mas certainly sounds like someone who is intending to press ahead with independence, sounding not unlike someone who would press for a unilateral declaration of independence but as JHE says there might be a bit more to it than that.
 
1,835,178 voting for indy.
1,847,650 voting for others.

With 94.4pc counted

Also the countryside is more pro-indy and the cities are less so.
 
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Following the Público live feed now, Mas certainly sounds like someone who is intending to press ahead with independence, sounding not unlike someone who would press for a unilateral declaration of independence but as JHE says there might be a bit more to it than that.

Mas has repeatedly talked of negotiating.

Sure, it's possible that he will try UDI (as I said, I really don't know his intentions), but it seems so reckless that I'm sceptical.

Incidentally, when pollsters have presented Catalans with a range of options from a re-centralised Spain, through the status quo, more autonomy within a federal Spain to outright independence, the most popular option has been greater autonomy (though with less than 50%). My guess is that a chunk of the 48% who have voted for separatist parties want greater autonomy and decided to strengthen Mas' hand.
 
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I would like to end my Catalan election coverage as I'm going to bed with this image of the noble Catalan countryside. Visca la terra!



$_35.JPG
 
Well, a lot of Catalans do admire Cameron for giving the Scottish the chance at a referendum, the least they could do is send him a bit of porco...
 
1,835,178 voting for indy.
1,847,650 voting for others.

With 94.4pc counted

Also the countryside is more pro-indy and the cities are less so.

True isn't it? I lived in Manresa and it was Catalanísimo whereas Barcelona itself was much more of mixed bag. People in Manresa would accuse Barceloneses of not talking proper Catalan.

Girona is fuet and pa amb tomaquet central though right? The most Catalan place of all.
 
The Spanish press seem to be claiming it to be a victory for the no camp which I think is very misleading. If there was a referendum first of all it would depend on the question and the available answers. If it was like the Scottish referendum i.e. <<yes/no>> using the data at hand there are more definitive yes votes than no votes


Yes: 1.957.348, JxS+CUP
NO: 1.605.563, C's+PP+PSC


I don't think you can include the 552.896 votes for groups CSQEP, Unió, others, spoiled etc automatically into the no camp as most analysts her in Spain have done, never mind speculate how they would vote in a yes/no dichotomy. As I said earlier the results would depend on the question and available answers if it was more complex say:


1.Yes
2.No
3. No, but more autonomy and fiscal powers


I’d speculate that option 3 would win.


From the results of the election the one thing that is clear is that sovereignism (the right to decide) is the winner. Groups such as CSQEP support the right to decide even if they don't have a clear stance in regards to independence. Sadly in Spain the press very rarely seem to differentiate the difference between sovereignism and independence probably because it would legitimise in my opinion the demand for a referendum on independence and as JHE stated there are lots of people (even on the left) who believe the Catalans have no right to self-determination.
 
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I was in Barcelona recently and realised I don't really understand left wing Catalan nationalism. I can get left wing Scottish nationalism, but Catalonia is an economically dominant part of Spain, and seems to have as many right wing politicians as anywhere else. Can anyone explain what the leftist supporters of nationalism want to get out of it?
 
I was in Barcelona recently and realised I don't really understand left wing Catalan nationalism. I can get left wing Scottish nationalism, but Catalonia is an economically dominant part of Spain, and seems to have as many right wing politicians as anywhere else. Can anyone explain what the leftist supporters of nationalism want to get out of it?

There are certainly left-wing and right-wing versions of Catalan nationalism and I agree that it can seem odd that left-wingers are Catalan nationalists, when you listen to right-wing Catalan nationalists slagging off people in southern Spain as lazy useless inferior types, who 'don't know how to work' and so on, and explaining that they (the Catalans) don't like paying taxes which 'Madrid' then spends on the poorer, less economically developed parts of Spain. It's a view of Spain that's more than a bit lacking in solidarity! Jordi Pujol, the extraordinarily successful thief and long-term leader of Catalanismo, came out with some pretty extreme stuff about Andalusians.

It would be a mistake, though, to think of the left-wing Catalan nats in general as a bunch of people who were left-wing to start with and, after considering the Catalan national question from their chosen left-wing perspective, came to the conclusion that independence would be conducive to left-wingery. In terms of the individuals concerned, I think many will have grown up as Catalanistas and if left-wingery has influenced their nationalism it is to make them more militant, more pan-Catalanista (they want a new state consisting of the 'Catalan countries': Catalonia+the Valencian Region+the Balearic Islands+a strip of Aragon...) and of course more republican.

(There is a parallel with Basque nationalism. It also has left-wing and right-wing forms and it is the very much the left-wingers who emphasise the importance of joining together all the Basque territories. They want to make a new country consisting of not just the three provinces of the existing Spanish Basque Country but also Navarra and the three French Basque provinces.)

The Catalanista I know best is a man - lets call him P - now in his late 60s who has always been Catalanista. He is a moderate left-winger. He has always opposed Convergencia (the party currently led by Artur Mas), because it is right-wing and corrupt. He grew up under the dictatorship, in a very Catalan place where, despite the regime, everything - home, social life, work, school, the Church - was conducted in Catalan, with the sole exception of the times when the school inspector visited from Madrid. When the inspector was there, the schoolmaster would teach in Spanish. P told me that the first time he had to spend all day in a Spanish-speaking environment was when he was doing his military service. He was posted to a Catalan-speaking place, Mallorca, but of course the language of the army was and is Spanish. He said that at first speaking in Spanish all day made his throat hurt.

If that's your experience, I suppose you are very inclined to see the Spanish as a different nationality and to see your own nation as dominated by - oppressed by - these Spanish foreigners. If, on the other hand, you are Catalan, but a lot younger than P, you will have grown up with stories of the dictatorship and also with a school system designed, both in terms of language policy and in the syllabus (eg, in history & geography), to make you staunchly Catalan and resent Spain.

Some PP provocations seem almost designed to turn Catalans into Catalanistas and Catalanistas into supporters of independence ASAP. My favourite, coz it's a cheeky little rhyme, is from some time ago. When Aznar won one of his election victories (1996, 2000), his supporters chanted: "¡Pujol, enano, habla castellano!" [Pujol, dwarf, speak Spanish!] Though I think it's funny, it expresses an arrogant mentality which upsets and annoys Catalans and the same centralising Spanish nationalist mentality was perceived when, much more recently, the (then and much-hated) Minister for Education explained that he wanted to "españolizar a los niños catalanes" [to make Catalan children Spanish]. That's just a couple of examples, but many Catalans feel disrespected by 'Madrid' and the Spanish right especially.

They also feel they haven't had their fair share of investment in infrastructure and, for example, they have to pay through the nose to drive on motorways, while in the centre of Spain you don't have to.

So what would a left-wing Catalan nationalist, for example a supporter of ERC or CUP, say in answer to your question? I think he or she would say: national liberation, self-determination for the Catalan-speaking peoples, an end to living under a monarchy, a blow against arrogant chauvinist Spanish nationalism and against the 'Spanish state' and a great encouragement for the Basques, and perhaps in the long term others, to achieve their freedom too.

The Second Republic is a very long time ago, but Spanish politics remains shaped by the opposing lines drawn up in the 1930s that led to the ensuing civil war. In a nutshell, the Spanish right is very hostile to Catalan, Basque, Galician etc aspirations to go their own way and the left is less hostile. At the moment, the Socialist Party is talking about federalism and the right is just talking about the importance of obeying the law.

Looking to the left of the left, the right-on types, the would-be revolutionaries, you find people all over Spain who are very sympathetic to the left-wing nationalists in Catalonia, the Basque Country and so on. This is clear in attitudes to languages. There was a time when radicals (I think this was true of the anarchists of the CNT, for example) valued Spanish as the shared language of the working class. Now right-on types, Anarcho-Wotsits included, strongly tend to insist on using Catalan, Basque, Galician whenever possible. Just one little example: I was in Alicante for part of August. In the capital there, the language you hear on the streets, in the shops, on the buses, in the bars etc etc is Spanish. However, the right-on posters stuck on the walls and right-on banners dangling from balconies, both feminist and lefty ones, were in Valencian. Partly this is a matter of respect for those languages and for those who want to protect and promote those languages - and that's fair enough - but it also reflects a certain view of Spain. In right-on publications in Spain, the term 'Spain' barely appears. It is always 'the Spanish state': a reactionary imposition on the various nations of that area.

For that sort of lefty - whether Catalan, Basque or from elsewhere - 'Spain' connotes reaction, oppression, repression, Franco, monarchy, the Civil Guard and the rest of the armed forces, the National Police dressed for a riot, cultural stultification and right-wing philistinism, PP pig-politicians stuffing their pockets, the antique linguistic chauvinism of telling people they have to speak 'cristiano', sexism, racism, antipathy to 'maricones', nasty little pencil moustaches and being beastly to bulls. People with that vision of Spain would like to dismantle it.
 
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Thanks for the long reply - much appreciated. I guess I was initially thinking about the more radical left, including things I found bizarre, like a lot of social centre sites in Barcelona being only in Catalan. Which, considering there are plenty of people in Barcelona who speak only Spanish, struck me as borderline offensive. But I'm grateful you answered more broadly.

I guess in the end I support people's right to self-determination, but I can't help questioning the logic sometimes. For instance this:

For that sort of lefty - whether Catalan, Basque or from elsewhere - 'Spain' connotes reaction, oppression, repression, Franco, monarchy, the Civil Guard and the rest of the armed forces, the National Police dressed for a riot, cultural stultification and right-wing philistinism, PP pig-politicians stuffing their pockets, the antique linguistic chauvinism of telling people they have to speak 'cristiano', sexism, racism, antipathy to 'maricones', nasty little pencil moustaches and being beastly to bulls. People with that vision of Spain would like to dismantle it.

I can kind of see it. But given the number of Catalan speakers in Spain, presumably many of the people involved in the above things have also been Catalan speakers over the years. And Barcelona's wealth also comes from the plundering of the Americas, just as Madrid's did. Do Catalans think they are a nicer breed of people? Or do they believe their political traditions are unsullied by all that Spain has done?

I suppose there could be an argument from the radical left for creating entirely new political traditions. But given the dominance of the right in the nationalist movement, this seems rather too optimistic.

Just to be clear, I'm not criticising what you wrote, just thinking through the internal logic of some of this thinking :D
 
I think it doesn't help that my one chat with a nationalist on this trip was with a right winger who just couldn't leave alone the issue of giving taxes to spain, and whose other main argument seemed to be about a kind of manly pride about not being governed by people who didn't 'respect' him.

It was pretty hard to be sympathetic to either of those lines of argument.
 
I think Catalan nationalism is pretty fucking stupid tbh. And if it wasn't for the financial crisis it wouldn't be a question. I'm with Podemos.

Although I do understand the antipathy to Madrid, Franco, fascism and the fucking PP wankers.
 
...if it wasn't for the financial crisis it wouldn't be a question.

I don't agree. The Catalan national question long predates the current economic crisis.

On the other hand, I do agree that the current economic crisis seems to have strengthened Spain's periferal nationalisms, including Catalan nationalism, and my hunch is this is related to the left's greatest weakness: that we don't know what the ecomonic solution is. I think some people react to a lack of economic clarity by changing the subject to one we find easier to think about, national identity, independence etc. We may not know what socialism is, but we pretty much know what an independent country is.

I reckon there is an element of: 'Fuck! The car's not working and we don't know how to fix it. OK, let's paint it a different colour!'
 
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There are certainly left-wing and right-wing versions of Catalan nationalism and I agree that it can seem odd that left-wingers are Catalan nationalists, when you listen to right-wing Catalan nationalists slagging off people in southern Spain as lazy useless inferior types, who 'don't know how to work' and so on, and explaining that they (the Catalans) don't like paying taxes which 'Madrid' then spends on the poorer, less economically developed parts of Spain. It's a view of Spain that's more than a bit lacking in solidarity! Jordi Pujol, the extraordinarily successful thief and long-term leader of Catalanismo, came out with some pretty extreme stuff about Andalusians.

It would a mistake, though, to think of the left-wing Catalan nats in general as a bunch of people who were left-wing to start with and, after considering the Catalan national question from their chosen left-wing perspective, came to the conclusion that independence would be conducive to left-wingery. In terms of the individuals concerned, I think many will have grown up as Catalanistas and if left-wingery has influenced their nationalism it is to make them more militant, more pan-Catalanista (they want a new state consisting of the 'Catalan countries': Catalonia+the Valencian Region+the Balearic Islands+a strip of Aragon...) and of course more republican.

(There is a parallel with Basque nationalism. It also has left-wing and right-wing forms and it is the very much the left-wingers who emphasise the importance of joining together all the Basque territories. They want to make a new country consisting of not just the three provinces of the existing Spanish Basque Country but also Navarra and the three French Basque provinces.)

The Catalanista I know best is a man - lets call him P - now in his late 60s who has always been Catalanista. He is a moderate left-winger. He has always opposed Convergencia (the party currently led by Artur Mas), because it is right-wing and corrupt. He grew up under the dictatorship, in a very Catalan place where, despite the regime, everything - home, social life, work, school, the Church - was conducted in Catalan, with the sole exception of the times when the school inspector visited from Madrid. When the inspector was there, the schoolmaster would teach in Spanish. P told me that the first time he had to spend all day in a Spanish-speaking environment was when he was doing his military service. He was posted to a Catalan-speaking place, Mallorca, but of course the language of the army was and is Spanish. He said that at first speaking in Spanish all day made his throat hurt.

If that's your experience, I suppose you are very inclined to see the Spanish as a different nationality and to see your own nation as dominated by - oppressed by - these Spanish foreigners. If, on the other hand, you are Catalan, but a lot younger than P, you will have grown up with stories of the dictatorship and also with a school system designed, both in terms of language policy and in the syllabus (eg, in history & geography), to make you staunchly Catalan and resent Spain.

Some PP provocations seem almost designed to turn Catalans into Catalanistas and Catalanistas into supporters of independence ASAP. My favourite, coz it's a cheeky little rhyme, is from some time ago. When Aznar won one of his election victories (1996, 2000), his supporters chanted: "¡Pujol, enano, habla castellano!" [Pujol, dwarf, speak Spanish!] Though I think it's funny, it expresses an arrogant mentality which upsets and annoys Catalans and the same centralising Spanish nationalist mentality was perceived when, much more recently, the (then and much-hated) Minister for Education explained that he wanted to "españolizar a los niños catalanes" [to make Catalan children Spanish]. That's just a couple of examples, but many Catalans feel disrespected by 'Madrid' and the Spanish right especially.

They also feel they haven't had their fair share of investment in infrastructure and, for example, they have to pay through the nose to drive on motorways, while in the centre of Spain you don't have to.

So what would a left-wing Catalan nationalist, for example a supporter of ERC or CUP, say in answer to your question? I think he or she would say: national liberation, self-determination for the Catalan-speaking peoples, an end to living under a monarchy, a blow against arrogant chauvinist Spanish nationalism and against the 'Spanish state' and a great encouragement for the Basques, and perhaps in the long term others, to achieve their freedom too.

The second Republic is a very long time ago, but Spanish politics remains shaped by the opposing lines drawn up in the 1930s that led to the ensuing civil war. In a nutshell, the Spanish right is very hostile to Catalan, Basque, Galician etc aspirations to go their own way and the left is less hostile. At the moment, the Socialist Party is talking about federalism and the right is just talking about the importance of obeying the law.

Looking to the left of the left, the right-on types, the would-be revolutionaries, you find people all over Spain who are very sympathetic to the left-wing nationalists in Catalonia, the Basque Country and so on. This is clear in attitudes to languages. There was a time when radicals (I think this was true of the anarchists of the CNT, for example) valued Spanish as the shared language of the working class. Now right-on types, Anarcho-Wotsits included, strongly tend to insist on using Catalan, Basque, Galician whenever possible. Just one little example: I was in Alicante for part of August. In the capital there, the language you hear on the streets, in the shops, on the buses, in the bars etc etc is Spanish. However, the right-on posters stuck on the walls and right-on banners dangling from balconies, both feminist and lefty ones, were in Valencian. Partly this is a matter of respect for those languages and for those who want to protect and promote those languages - and that's fair enough - but it also reflects a certain view of Spain. In right-on publications in Spain, the term 'Spain' barely appears. It is always 'the Spanish state': a reactionary imposition on the various nations of that area.

For that sort of lefty - whether Catalan, Basque or from elsewhere - 'Spain' connotes reaction, oppression, repression, Franco, monarchy, the Civil Guard and the rest of the armed forces, the National Police dressed for a riot, cultural stultification and right-wing philistinism, PP pig-politicians stuffing their pockets, the antique linguistic chauvinism of telling people they have to speak 'cristiano', sexism, racism, antipathy to 'maricones', nasty little pencil moustaches and being beastly to bulls. People with that vision of Spain would like to dismantle it.

Fantastic post. There's not a word of that I'd disagree with having lived in (molt Catalanista) Manresa, Barcelona and Madrid.
 
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