Ministers target July 4th for reopening of England’s pubs and restaurants

[The39thStep]

It’s the social value of pubs that people have missed. Sat at home, or in a park, isn’t the same. Sneerers mocking people for ordering Carling/Fosters miss the point entirely.

I think there are different experiences of pubs , if you work and live locally and are part of a local community then the local pubs are a hub for social value.

 

[killer b]

It’s a great pity there isn’t the same pouring of outrage at those workplaces in Leicester and no doubt elsewhere that are contributing to local spikes due to unsafe working practices.

It's a lot less visible than crowds of people is all. I do get why this kind of thing is a focus - but it's telling that none of the pics of outrage I've seen yet are actually inside pubs.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just for the record I reckon opening the pubs could cause a rise in cases - but if it does, it'll be because meeting and spending time with people inside buildings massively increases the infection risk, not because some people got pissed in the street in Soho

Yep. We've learned a few things if we ever have to do a lockdown again. The lockdown was a blunt instrument, an emergency measure taken so that places could get a grip on things. But it was always going to take out behaviours that are harmless alongside the dangerous ones. Next time around, if there is a next time, limiting time outside or distances walked, closing parks, etc, will hopefully be deemed not necessary. If anything people should be encouraged to get themselves outside.

 

[LDC]

Just for the record I reckon opening the pubs could cause a rise in cases - but if it does, it'll be because meeting and spending time with people inside buildings massively increases the infection risk, not because some people got pissed in the street in Soho

If I was a betting person my money would be on the infection rate and deaths staying pretty stable as it is now until the winter. I think any up-swing in cases due to lockdown easing will be balanced out by the generally falling rates, with maybe some increases in some localised areas. But I'd bet on that changing over the winter quite significantly, and I think it'll be a hard few months then with a second spike plus other winter pressures plus the backlog of problems from people avoiding medical care last few months. The other HCPs I know are worried about the winter much more than the rest of the summer.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If I was a betting person my money would be on the infection rate and deaths staying pretty stable as it is now until the winter. I think any up-swing in cases due to lockdown easing will be balanced out by the generally falling rates, with maybe some increases in some localised areas. But I'd bet on that changing over the winter quite significantly, and I think it'll be a hard few months then with a second spike plus other winter pressures plus the backlog of problems from people avoiding medical care last few months. The other HCPs I know are worried about the winter much more than the rest of the summer.

Yep that's my guess too. There have been small-ish upturns from very low levels in a few places across Europe, which they're having to deal with, and probably will deal with. We'll probably have those too, from bad employers probably more than pissed punters. But yeah, come autumn behaviours will change again.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I think outrage is overselling it a bit tbf, there's certainly eyerolling and FFS-ing

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think outrage is overselling it a bit tbf, there's certainly eyerolling and FFS-ing

"Second wave here we come"

 

[Steel Icarus]

Two genuine questions, asked from a position of ignorance, not sarcasm...

How and where do all those Soho drinkers get their drinks?

Wasn't there a localised spike related directly to the Cheltenham festival, which was largely crowded outdoors? (I know the virus was a lot more prevalent four months ago than it is now.)

 

[Steel Icarus]

"Second wave here we come"

No further questions your honour

 

[Supine]

How and where do all those Soho drinkers get their drinks?

Pubs

 

[planetgeli]

Wasn't there a localised spike related directly to the Cheltenham festival, which was largely crowded outdoors? (I know the virus was a lot more prevalent four months ago than it is now.)

No, but it's certainly become an oft-repeated urban myth, particularly by the media. Figures were published claiming 29% (I think) of all Covid cases in Gloucestershire at that time were in the two postcodes adjacent to Cheltenham racecourse. What nobody said was that those two postcodes accounted for 25% of the population of Gloucestershire, a very rural county.

The urban myth, however, is bound to outlast that analysis.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Wasn't there a localised spike related directly to the Cheltenham festival, which was largely crowded outdoors? (I know the virus was a lot more prevalent four months ago than it is now.)

There was a lot of speculation about that, but nothing proven, there was about three dozen cases linked to the festival, but it was attended by around 250,000 people over three days, so the number of cases were tiny, and they could have picked it up elsewhere, in particular on public transport going to or from the event.

And, people are packed in far tighter there, and at football matches, compared to Soho last night, and what we have seen during the protests & crowded beaches, and no spikes have been linked to those events.

 

[Big Bertha]

My bank account has been looking quite healthy for the last couple of months and yesterday I realised why. Two of us had 3 drinks each and spent a little over 40 quid in the pub. Normally we'd do that several times a week and consider it normal running expenses but now, after not doing that and not really missing it for three months, I reckon we might wind it in a bit in future.

It’s ludicrously expensive when you think about it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There was a lot of speculation about that, but nothing proven, there was about three dozen cases linked to the festival, but it was attended by around 250,000 people over three days, so the number of cases were tiny, and they could have picked it up elsewhere, in particular on public transport going to or from the event.

And, people are packed in far tighter there, and at football matches, compared to Soho last night, and what we have seen during the protests & crowded beaches, and no spikes have been linked to those events.

It's the indoor things that are going to be the biggest barrier to getting back to normal, I would think. Fuck knows when gigs will be allowed again - strike me as prime covid aerosol factories. Bauhaus gig I was supposed to go to in April got postponed to August and is now rescheduled for June next year, which is probably more realistic.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I can't find the bloody link now, but one article I read about Soho last night, mentioned whilst there was crowds in the street, inside various pubs checked they were maintaining social distancing, which is more important.

 

[The39thStep]

It's a lot less visible than crowds of people is all. I do get why this kind of thing is a focus - but it's telling that none of the pics of outrage I've seen yet are actually inside pubs.

Only two bars were closed in Greater Manchester for social distancing yesterday which on the face of it is pretty good going . The workplaces in Liecester really deserves more coverage as no doubt do those similar elsewhere.

 

[Pickman's model]

People have been forced to experience a different way of life over the last few months without pubs. The realisation that a couple of bottles of plonk or a few cans in the park can be just as enjoyable and several orders of magnitude cheaper than going to a boozer is probably going to change a lot of folk's drinking habits, at least in the summer.

We'll be a nation of street drinkers by the end of the month

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

To me the Soho thing is about local conditions and poor control systems rather than bad behaviour (and overcrowding rather than lack of attention to social distancing). You've got a high concentration of pubs/bars, narrow streets, and people are just taking their drinks into the street rather than into the venues' own areas so there's no control on numbers. This could be addressed at local level by allocating spaces and making bars control numbers, not allowing takeout and limiting them to very small numbers inside, even fencing off the end of the street and controlling numbers in or out. Or shutting down the area I guess. I don't think it says much about anything outside the area.

 

[Steel Icarus]

To me the Soho thing is about local conditions and poor control systems rather than bad behaviour (and overcrowding rather than lack of attention to social distancing). You've got a high concentration of pubs/bars, narrow streets, and people are just taking their drinks into the street rather than into the venues' own areas so there's no control on numbers. This could be addressed at local level by allocating spaces and making bars control numbers, not allowing takeout and limiting them to very small numbers inside, even fencing off the end of the street and controlling numbers in or out. Or shutting down the area I guess. I don't think it says much about anything outside the area.

I think it may say something TO things outside the area.

 

[Badgers]

We'll be a nation of street drinkers by the end of the month

We 'will be'

 

[cupid_stunt]

To me the Soho thing is about local conditions and poor control systems rather than bad behaviour (and overcrowding rather than lack of attention to social distancing). You've got a high concentration of pubs/bars, narrow streets, and people are just taking their drinks into the street rather than into the venues' own areas so there's no control on numbers. This could be addressed at local level by allocating spaces and making bars control numbers, not allowing takeout and limiting them to very small numbers inside, even fencing off the end of the street and controlling numbers in or out. Or shutting down the area I guess. I don't think it says much about anything outside the area.

Totally agree. There's been similiar pockets of crowded streets in various spots across country, but the numbers involved are tiny in the overall scheme of things, whereas overall the first night seems to have gone well, with the vast majority of pubs & people sticking to the rules.

Local problems can be dealt with at local level.

 

[Pickman's model]

To me the Soho thing is about local conditions and poor control systems rather than bad behaviour (and overcrowding rather than lack of attention to social distancing). You've got a high concentration of pubs/bars, narrow streets, and people are just taking their drinks into the street rather than into the venues' own areas so there's no control on numbers. This could be addressed at local level by allocating spaces and making bars control numbers, not allowing takeout and limiting them to very small numbers inside, even fencing off the end of the street and controlling numbers in or out. Or shutting down the area I guess. I don't think it says much about anything outside the area.

Nothing at all to do with the temporary pedestrianisation of the street

 

[clicker]

It seems to have gone Ok in London. Certainly didn't hear the sirens I'd normally associate with a Saturday night.
Soho is a tricky one. Personally I love the place and have since a teen, it feels comfortable, familiar etc and pedestrianisation was long overdue.
But it is a maze of narrow streets. It could be rose tinted glasses, but I'd rather see people drinking in the streets there, than crammed into the pubs there. I think it was a novelty, it's central and handy for people to meet up outside. I doubt it'll have the same appeal on a colder day.
Soho is busy with workers all week usually. With the majority using public transport to get there. Are they being told now it's safe to go to work on tubes and buses, it's safe to be stuck inside all day while at work, but for gawdsake don't have a pint in the street on the way home, there madness lies.
I think pubs could have held off , to see the effect of workplaces and schools opening. But they didn't.

 

[MrSki]

Wasn't there a localised spike related directly to the Cheltenham festival, which was largely crowded outdoors? (I know the virus was a lot more prevalent four months ago than it is now.)

Although the majority of punters are outside, the bars & the tote are either indoors or in tents so as good as indoors. There are a few drinks taken hence crowded indoor bars.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It seems to have gone Ok in London. Certainly didn't hear the sirens I'd normally associate with a Saturday night.
Soho is a tricky one. Personally I love the place and have since a teen, it feels comfortable, familiar etc and pedestrianisation was long overdue.
But it is a maze of narrow streets. It could be rose tinted glasses, but I'd rather see people drinking in the streets there, than crammed into the pubs there. I think it was a novelty, it's central and handy for people to meet up outside. I doubt it'll have the same appeal on a colder day.
Soho is busy with workers all week usually. With the majority using public transport to get there. Are they being told now it's safe to go to work on tubes and buses, it's safe to be stuck inside all day while at work, but for gawdsake don't have a pint in the street on the way home, there madness lies.
I think pubs could have held off , to see the effect of workplaces and schools opening. But they didn't.

Yeah. I agree. And lots of the pubs in Soho are relatively tiny, and none of them have beer gardens. In effect, the street became the beer garden last night.

 

[clicker]

Yeah. I agree. And lots of the pubs in Soho are relatively tiny, and none of them have beer gardens. In effect, the street became the beer garden last night.

Exactly, with no pub car parks or beer gardens there, what did they envisage happening?
Even if places somehow limited the number of people they are serving outside ( unable to see that being very realistic), there are hundreds of places licensed to sell alcohol in a very small geographical area, with no designated outside space.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Everyone normally drinks in the street in Soho anyway, this isn't new to covid times.

 

[clicker]

Everyone normally drinks in the street in Soho anyway, this isn't new to covid times.

Yes, and usually crammed on very narrow pavements. The streets were only pedestrianised yesterday, it seems like an uncharacteristic but sensible decision.

 

[killer b]

It’s a great pity there isn’t the same pouring of outrage at those workplaces in Leicester and no doubt elsewhere that are contributing to local spikes due to unsafe working practices.

I've been thinking about this all afternoon, cause while I've seen plenty of mentions about the Leicester sweatshops today, it hasn't had the same attention - partly I think it's a visual thing: the only thing we love more than getting steaming drunk is sneering at photos of other people getting steaming drunk.

Partly though I think it's just that what makes these things more visible a lot of the time is that people are arguing about them. And while there's two reasonable positions to be taken on the pubs opening and the people drinking in them and how good that is, no-one is going to seriously argue that slave labour in Leicester is a good thing. So the important thing slips down the feed, and we're left arguing over the dregs of last night's session...

 

[frogwoman]

When are the rest of the public loos opening up again?