Israel's apartheid wall - The Guardian
- Thread starter Spion
- Start date
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
With your failed promises, consistent misquoting and downright lies I think it only fair I point out to people the type of poster you are. You need to deal with that.
Spion
I hear ya
That one had me ROFLing.
So, it's because you're Jewish? Thank god for that. I would hated to have found out it was because you were a gigantic bullshitter
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
That one had me ROFLing.
So, it's because you're Jewish? Thank god for that. I would hated to have found out it was because you were a gigantic bullshitter
It's almost as bad as saying "Is it because I is black"?
Idaho: "Talking to Idaho, whose grandfather was a rabbi.": Mine too on both sides, as well as my paternal line (but noy my father) going back more than a thousand years.
"Paraphrasing to turnout strawmen is not a Jewish thing.": No, not the strawmen but then I do not use that device. I simply paraphrase yours and others' words. If you think you are using "strawmen," which then would make me guilty of that, so be it. Maybe you should also work on your self esteem.
As for what is and what is not a Jewish custom, I would imagine that you did not know much about your grandfather if you believe that, although...you could always reply that he was not charedi. Whatever.
"Daft nonsense.": They have a cute turn of phrase in this country, "Opinions are like as%holes, everyone has one." You find paraphrasing to be daft? Interesting. To each their own.
You believe the statement "Secret Police all over them like a bad rash" does not represent brutality? I know absolutely nothing about you except your grandfather is supposed to be a rabbi but I would , just taking a wild guess, bet you are pretty young to be playing such games. If you want to argue over anything, go for it.
"Must be shi^ at learning rote.": Even I can recognise that as shoddy composition but maybe you are like me, not speaking it as a 1st language. Anyway, I imagine I was ok being that I was schooled charedi until age 16. I was not practicing my Alef-Bet at age 16 so I managed to do at least average. Thanks for caring though, it is the thought that really matters.
"Completely change the meaning of words on a screen.": You are the second person to argue semantics in obvious situations. To each their own. Again, you do not find it brutal? What then was your point? It was merely "uncomfortable?" You are one of those people who argue just to argue and for the time being I will humour you... I would however hope that you might start actually making sense.
IF it bothers you that your words are not quoted verbatim 5 (or how many) posts from the original that is another issue you must learn to cope with. In the interim you might try learning some civility. Whether or not you find me distasteful, I still have managed to post to you without using expletives and while semantics are what they are, expletives are the domain of little minded people. Surely someone as intelligent and as self assured as yourself can do just a tad bit better?
"Defender of the Israeli status quo.": I do not know how long you have been reading posts here but I suggest, if you are going to form opinions about people you have never met, that you at the very least research their posts. The only status quo I deal with here is the continued ignorance, naivete, and stereotyping that passes as discourse in this forum. I have plenty of complaints about my nation, just not the fantasies usuallyt posted here.
As I often say, I applaud constructive criticism and civil discourse of all stripes. I do not though particularly care for ideolgocial investments by foreigners, especially when they are ignorant. Israel is Apartheid? Or ,our "Secret Police" (sic) are "over people like a bad rash?"
I do not want you parroting my views. There would be no point in even opening this forum if everyone aped my opinion or view. I come here to expand my own horizons by learning how other people see things. I also try to provide as many facts as possible when I encounter propagandists talking nonsense.
I have no problem if anyone offers me a factual rebuttal but when they instead simply offer me expletive laden criticisms of me as a person...especially when they have never met me, it is kind of ridiculous.
So far, I have only observed you insulting me and arguing semantics. I would love to see you offer some facts but that of course is your choice.
"Idaho thinks Israel should be disbanded.": OK, thanks for sharing. And? What is your alternaitve? Jews should not have their own nations? Only Arabs should? ALL nations should be erased?
"Paraphrasing to turnout strawmen is not a Jewish thing.": No, not the strawmen but then I do not use that device. I simply paraphrase yours and others' words. If you think you are using "strawmen," which then would make me guilty of that, so be it. Maybe you should also work on your self esteem.
As for what is and what is not a Jewish custom, I would imagine that you did not know much about your grandfather if you believe that, although...you could always reply that he was not charedi. Whatever.
"Daft nonsense.": They have a cute turn of phrase in this country, "Opinions are like as%holes, everyone has one." You find paraphrasing to be daft? Interesting. To each their own.
You believe the statement "Secret Police all over them like a bad rash" does not represent brutality? I know absolutely nothing about you except your grandfather is supposed to be a rabbi but I would , just taking a wild guess, bet you are pretty young to be playing such games. If you want to argue over anything, go for it.
"Must be shi^ at learning rote.": Even I can recognise that as shoddy composition but maybe you are like me, not speaking it as a 1st language. Anyway, I imagine I was ok being that I was schooled charedi until age 16. I was not practicing my Alef-Bet at age 16 so I managed to do at least average. Thanks for caring though, it is the thought that really matters.
"Completely change the meaning of words on a screen.": You are the second person to argue semantics in obvious situations. To each their own. Again, you do not find it brutal? What then was your point? It was merely "uncomfortable?" You are one of those people who argue just to argue and for the time being I will humour you... I would however hope that you might start actually making sense.
IF it bothers you that your words are not quoted verbatim 5 (or how many) posts from the original that is another issue you must learn to cope with. In the interim you might try learning some civility. Whether or not you find me distasteful, I still have managed to post to you without using expletives and while semantics are what they are, expletives are the domain of little minded people. Surely someone as intelligent and as self assured as yourself can do just a tad bit better?
"Defender of the Israeli status quo.": I do not know how long you have been reading posts here but I suggest, if you are going to form opinions about people you have never met, that you at the very least research their posts. The only status quo I deal with here is the continued ignorance, naivete, and stereotyping that passes as discourse in this forum. I have plenty of complaints about my nation, just not the fantasies usuallyt posted here.
As I often say, I applaud constructive criticism and civil discourse of all stripes. I do not though particularly care for ideolgocial investments by foreigners, especially when they are ignorant. Israel is Apartheid? Or ,our "Secret Police" (sic) are "over people like a bad rash?"
I do not want you parroting my views. There would be no point in even opening this forum if everyone aped my opinion or view. I come here to expand my own horizons by learning how other people see things. I also try to provide as many facts as possible when I encounter propagandists talking nonsense.
I have no problem if anyone offers me a factual rebuttal but when they instead simply offer me expletive laden criticisms of me as a person...especially when they have never met me, it is kind of ridiculous.
So far, I have only observed you insulting me and arguing semantics. I would love to see you offer some facts but that of course is your choice.
"Idaho thinks Israel should be disbanded.": OK, thanks for sharing. And? What is your alternaitve? Jews should not have their own nations? Only Arabs should? ALL nations should be erased?
Tangent: "Equal rights for Israelis and "Palestinians", NOW!": YES, YES, YES, I PRAY FOR IT EVER DAY.
For example, an Arab from Ramallah can buy a condo , if they so wanted, in Tel Aviv but my buying any form of property in the PA is a death penalty offence. I am not allowed to live in Gaza, per HAMAS, because I am a Jew. I WANT EQUALITY.
Since 1948 only 2 Israeli Jews have ever commited acts of terrorism against Arabs. Both were ripped from limb to limb (with the 2nd also being lynched after death). On the other hand the PA has only arrested 4 Arabs for belonging to a terrorist organisation, only began last month, and none actually commited an act. HAMAS has arrested only 1 and it was because he is in a Fatah allied group. I WANT EQUALITY.
Arabs have 27 entities (including HAMASastan and "WB" as 2 separate entities, as they are), Jews only have 1!!!!! I WANT EQUALITY.
Jews are not even allowed to transit airports in 5 of them!!! Arabs have equal rights in Israel!!!! I WANT EQUALITY.
Israel paid 10 million US dollars in 1949 value, gave (free) many thousands of hectares in land, and allowed more than 200,000 "Palestinian Refugees" to return to Israel, Gaza, and the so called "WB." It also offered many more the right to return. The more than 1 million Jewish Refugees from Arab Nations have never gotten a doallr OR been allowed to return even once. I WANT EQUALITY.
Want to keep going?
For example, an Arab from Ramallah can buy a condo , if they so wanted, in Tel Aviv but my buying any form of property in the PA is a death penalty offence. I am not allowed to live in Gaza, per HAMAS, because I am a Jew. I WANT EQUALITY.
Since 1948 only 2 Israeli Jews have ever commited acts of terrorism against Arabs. Both were ripped from limb to limb (with the 2nd also being lynched after death). On the other hand the PA has only arrested 4 Arabs for belonging to a terrorist organisation, only began last month, and none actually commited an act. HAMAS has arrested only 1 and it was because he is in a Fatah allied group. I WANT EQUALITY.
Arabs have 27 entities (including HAMASastan and "WB" as 2 separate entities, as they are), Jews only have 1!!!!! I WANT EQUALITY.
Jews are not even allowed to transit airports in 5 of them!!! Arabs have equal rights in Israel!!!! I WANT EQUALITY.
Israel paid 10 million US dollars in 1949 value, gave (free) many thousands of hectares in land, and allowed more than 200,000 "Palestinian Refugees" to return to Israel, Gaza, and the so called "WB." It also offered many more the right to return. The more than 1 million Jewish Refugees from Arab Nations have never gotten a doallr OR been allowed to return even once. I WANT EQUALITY.
Want to keep going?
Spion: "So, Rachamim only paraphrases because he is Jewish.": No, not really. It began because I did not understand how to use the Quote feature. I am completely self taught with computers, although having a wife and one brother in law in the industry so to speak did help me. I learned to paraphrase though when I was 4, after mastering reading and writing.
It is a tool we use in charedi schooling. One reason is that we have been focused on education long before reading materials and such were affordable, and even today many Jewish schools use 1 text for 4 or more students at the same time. We learn to read Hebrew, Aramaic, Yiddish, and Lasdino upside down and sideways if you can imagine.
If you know anything of Mishnah and G'marah you will know that the reason why they are called the Oral Law is because they were transmitted by rote and memory. This is very basic in my culrture. One would have thought that instead of finding it humorous you might have instead recognised it as fact but then you do not seem to care that much about Jews.
It is a tool we use in charedi schooling. One reason is that we have been focused on education long before reading materials and such were affordable, and even today many Jewish schools use 1 text for 4 or more students at the same time. We learn to read Hebrew, Aramaic, Yiddish, and Lasdino upside down and sideways if you can imagine.
If you know anything of Mishnah and G'marah you will know that the reason why they are called the Oral Law is because they were transmitted by rote and memory. This is very basic in my culrture. One would have thought that instead of finding it humorous you might have instead recognised it as fact but then you do not seem to care that much about Jews.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
He did sign Oslo. Things immediately got worse for Palestinians with closure cutting them off from work and commerce. He wasn't solely responsible for the failure of Camp David in 2000 - and he probably would have signed at Taba if Sharon hadn't withdrawn from talks as soon as he got elected.
Gush Shalom hosts a handy flash presentation about what those "generous" offers actually entailed.
You're very naive and dead wrong about Palestinian tactics. Before the first intifada Israelis were barely aware that they were occupying Palestine, let alone the rest of the world. The first intifada was almost entirely non-violent on the explicit orders of the homegrown leadership. Those leaders were imprisoned and deported. The 2nd intifada was launched in a hail of a million IDF bullets and non-violent protest met with extreme violence.
You're correct to say that the tactics of Palestinian militants sometimes plays into the hands of Israel. They're often trying to provoke a disproportionate response in the vain hope that the world will wake up to how ridiculous the situation is. Previously, some of these apparent "own goals" were as a result of Hamas trying to undermine Arafat and using Israel's predictably overblown responses to do it. Other times, it is simply because there are 3.5 million people living in extreme conditions and it's just not sensible to expect all of them to have the forebearance of a saint whilst trusting that the rest of the world will take an interest and get it all sorted out.
"Arafat and Oslo.": Indeed, YMU is correct. Arafat signed but ONLY SIGNED the first part of a multi-staged agreement thus negating his first agreement at least as far as actual progress is concerned.
As far as that first part goes though, virtually ever part of it has been violated by the PA. Most of THOSE violations occurred before Arafat died.
"Things got worse for the 'Palestinians' when they were cut off from work and school'.": I will assume YMU that you are a young person and were not alive at that time, or at least not old enough to experience the events as far as what really happened, etc. I say that because Intifadeh I began in 87 and only ended with Oslo! then, a few years later they iniated Intifadeh II causing their own misery.
Although they claim it was a spontaneous act, etc. we have papers showing it was fully planned more than year in advance. In any event, even discounting proof, why should a Jew visiting the Jerwish Temple Mount cause violence from others? They make their bed, before, then, now, and always. It has never been different.
"He was not solely responsibile for the failure in 2000.": He sure was. Israel did not iniate the Intifadeh II. Arafat was a murdering and corrupt lying bastard. He would give a speech in English talking about how cruel Israel was and how badly he and his organisations wanted peace and then that same day give a speech in Arabic talking about exterminating Israel.
"Probably would have signed at Taba had Sharon not resisted negotiating.": Not true at all. Fact is, we cannot definitively say what a dead man might or might not have done but given the dynamic involved, his track record, and the events surrounding Taba we can safely say with a very, very high degree of certainty that it is very, very unlikely to have happened.
As far as that first part goes though, virtually ever part of it has been violated by the PA. Most of THOSE violations occurred before Arafat died.
"Things got worse for the 'Palestinians' when they were cut off from work and school'.": I will assume YMU that you are a young person and were not alive at that time, or at least not old enough to experience the events as far as what really happened, etc. I say that because Intifadeh I began in 87 and only ended with Oslo! then, a few years later they iniated Intifadeh II causing their own misery.
Although they claim it was a spontaneous act, etc. we have papers showing it was fully planned more than year in advance. In any event, even discounting proof, why should a Jew visiting the Jerwish Temple Mount cause violence from others? They make their bed, before, then, now, and always. It has never been different.
"He was not solely responsibile for the failure in 2000.": He sure was. Israel did not iniate the Intifadeh II. Arafat was a murdering and corrupt lying bastard. He would give a speech in English talking about how cruel Israel was and how badly he and his organisations wanted peace and then that same day give a speech in Arabic talking about exterminating Israel.
"Probably would have signed at Taba had Sharon not resisted negotiating.": Not true at all. Fact is, we cannot definitively say what a dead man might or might not have done but given the dynamic involved, his track record, and the events surrounding Taba we can safely say with a very, very high degree of certainty that it is very, very unlikely to have happened.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Rachamim. Your posts are confusing and barely readable. You constantly dissemble and mire discussion in false detail. You continually misquote and misrepresent people's views and defend a government who torture, imprison and murder in the name of a Greater Israel. You are the weakest link - goodbye.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
^^Indeed.
This is a good article (transcript) - speeches by a Palestinian and an Israeli who grew up during the first intifada. I'm not offering quotes because it's well worth reading in full. IMO, it gives a good insight into the dynamics on both sides.
This is a good article (transcript) - speeches by a Palestinian and an Israeli who grew up during the first intifada. I'm not offering quotes because it's well worth reading in full. IMO, it gives a good insight into the dynamics on both sides.
PART II:
In fact, Sharon has nothing to do with it. It took place before Sharon was in office. Our Foreign Minister (my second cousin by the way, Morrocoan branch) and the then POM adjunct were in charge of the Israeli Team. Barak was Premier.
A big problem was Barak and Arafat's afilure at Camp David, the other tet a tet you mentioned. It took place just the previous year, and THAT came at the iniation of Intifadeh I. So, it was not a fortuitous time for any attempt at anyhting, let alone Final Status issues. It was just insane to attempt it but to appease foreigners, we have certainly done worse (not only Uncle Sam, the world in general was clamoring for it).
If you truly want insight into the dynamic, examine the Ross Plan. You might argue that a decade previous means precious little but indeed it does. It reveals "Palestinian" core issues and ideology at their most visible. I suggest anyone attempting to get a handle at the Shikh, David, Taba Dynamic begin with Ross and then slowly come to those 3 facets.
"Gush Shalom offers a presentation on what these offers actually entailed.": Ahhhh, of course, no wonder you have failed thus far. I suggest instead any interested party begin with the EU Papers issued on each conference. The Taba papers are especially helpful. Then evaluate which each side has to say in retrospect, as well as the contemporarus media accounts of each event.
Gush Shalom (Bloc of Peace) is nothing but Leftist ideology and represents nothing but the Marxist take on the world. Israel is neither Socialist nor Communist and groups like Gush S. are about as in touch as the communists tryin to reinstate communism in Russia. Peacenik (Israeli Peace Movement generic term) is peacenik but certain particular orgnisation such as Gush S. are not driven for peace. Their vision of peace only involves peace for one side, the side working against Israel's very existence.
It is fine to take their views into account if so, but only as a side dish because it really has no bearing on anything grounded in reality.
I always get a chuckle when they sell their line of shi% to naive people (almost all being foreign of course). See, anyone who explores Ross even superficially cannot help but see Gush S. for what they really are.
"Before the Intifadeh I most Israelis were not even aware that they were occupying...": what? first, how old are you Second, how many times were you in Israel before the Intifadeh I (began in 87 by the way)? Jow many times after?
See I of course was there at both times and I never met a single Jew (quite literally by the way) who did not know the full history of every piece of land flying the Israeli flag. History is an obsession at home. In fact, for that matter, I never met any Israeli from any demographic who also did not know the full histories.
For starters, Israel never occupied a damn thing. The only nation to exist there, prior to Israel, was a Jewish Nation!!! The only argument to the contrary is to claim the Crusaders and that has no bearing either way. Certainly Arabs never had a nation there.
More to the point, who are "Palestinians?" My dad had the label, as did every single person born in what is now Israel, Jordan, Gaza, and "WB" prior to 1948. There was no PEople called "Palestinians." The vast majority of Arabs indentified themselves as "Southern Syrians" and until the French dashed their hopes that was indeed their political aim (to unify with Syria).
In the 48 War, Israel's War ofr Independance Jordan snatched the so called "WB" and then, after Armistice in 1949, formally annexed it entirely. So, if you want to argue Israel is occupying Jordanian land, maybe you have an argument. Problem there though is that in the 67 Armistice Jordan refused to take it back!!! Hahahaha. They were smart!
So...AGAIN, what is Israel "occupying?" Terrorism of course began in 1920 so to suggest an "occupation" is not only factually incorrrect, it is misleading as well. It is like a con man's trick.
"Intifadeh I was almost entirely non-vioelent.": WHAT!?!?!? You MUST be VERY young indeed. I fought in that "non-violent" war and I really have to tell you that you do not have a clue what you are saying. It was one of the most violent times in Israel's history. They would rotate us out of Lebanon to take 30 in a district and hop back up north by copter. We saw blood everyday and alot of it was our own.
I might ask that you truly research the issue if it in fact truly interests you. I applaud all interest, even that of people disagreeing with me but when you make statements like that it is really hard to remain contained.
In fact, Sharon has nothing to do with it. It took place before Sharon was in office. Our Foreign Minister (my second cousin by the way, Morrocoan branch) and the then POM adjunct were in charge of the Israeli Team. Barak was Premier.
A big problem was Barak and Arafat's afilure at Camp David, the other tet a tet you mentioned. It took place just the previous year, and THAT came at the iniation of Intifadeh I. So, it was not a fortuitous time for any attempt at anyhting, let alone Final Status issues. It was just insane to attempt it but to appease foreigners, we have certainly done worse (not only Uncle Sam, the world in general was clamoring for it).
If you truly want insight into the dynamic, examine the Ross Plan. You might argue that a decade previous means precious little but indeed it does. It reveals "Palestinian" core issues and ideology at their most visible. I suggest anyone attempting to get a handle at the Shikh, David, Taba Dynamic begin with Ross and then slowly come to those 3 facets.
"Gush Shalom offers a presentation on what these offers actually entailed.": Ahhhh, of course, no wonder you have failed thus far. I suggest instead any interested party begin with the EU Papers issued on each conference. The Taba papers are especially helpful. Then evaluate which each side has to say in retrospect, as well as the contemporarus media accounts of each event.
Gush Shalom (Bloc of Peace) is nothing but Leftist ideology and represents nothing but the Marxist take on the world. Israel is neither Socialist nor Communist and groups like Gush S. are about as in touch as the communists tryin to reinstate communism in Russia. Peacenik (Israeli Peace Movement generic term) is peacenik but certain particular orgnisation such as Gush S. are not driven for peace. Their vision of peace only involves peace for one side, the side working against Israel's very existence.
It is fine to take their views into account if so, but only as a side dish because it really has no bearing on anything grounded in reality.
I always get a chuckle when they sell their line of shi% to naive people (almost all being foreign of course). See, anyone who explores Ross even superficially cannot help but see Gush S. for what they really are.
"Before the Intifadeh I most Israelis were not even aware that they were occupying...": what? first, how old are you Second, how many times were you in Israel before the Intifadeh I (began in 87 by the way)? Jow many times after?
See I of course was there at both times and I never met a single Jew (quite literally by the way) who did not know the full history of every piece of land flying the Israeli flag. History is an obsession at home. In fact, for that matter, I never met any Israeli from any demographic who also did not know the full histories.
For starters, Israel never occupied a damn thing. The only nation to exist there, prior to Israel, was a Jewish Nation!!! The only argument to the contrary is to claim the Crusaders and that has no bearing either way. Certainly Arabs never had a nation there.
More to the point, who are "Palestinians?" My dad had the label, as did every single person born in what is now Israel, Jordan, Gaza, and "WB" prior to 1948. There was no PEople called "Palestinians." The vast majority of Arabs indentified themselves as "Southern Syrians" and until the French dashed their hopes that was indeed their political aim (to unify with Syria).
In the 48 War, Israel's War ofr Independance Jordan snatched the so called "WB" and then, after Armistice in 1949, formally annexed it entirely. So, if you want to argue Israel is occupying Jordanian land, maybe you have an argument. Problem there though is that in the 67 Armistice Jordan refused to take it back!!! Hahahaha. They were smart!
So...AGAIN, what is Israel "occupying?" Terrorism of course began in 1920 so to suggest an "occupation" is not only factually incorrrect, it is misleading as well. It is like a con man's trick.
"Intifadeh I was almost entirely non-vioelent.": WHAT!?!?!? You MUST be VERY young indeed. I fought in that "non-violent" war and I really have to tell you that you do not have a clue what you are saying. It was one of the most violent times in Israel's history. They would rotate us out of Lebanon to take 30 in a district and hop back up north by copter. We saw blood everyday and alot of it was our own.
I might ask that you truly research the issue if it in fact truly interests you. I applaud all interest, even that of people disagreeing with me but when you make statements like that it is really hard to remain contained.
PART III
YMU: The remark about the Intifadeh I is completely wrong. It began inviolence and was not only the first case of Suicide Bombing within Israel Proper (during the war) but also saw a horrifi number of atrocities committed by "Palestinians" against other "Palestinians." For example, it was the first case of "Necklacing" in the region.
For those who do not know, "necklacing" is the practice of placing a tyre around one's neck after it is soaked in petrol, and then lighting it on fire as the person sits there completely conscience.
They Necklaced drug addicts, homosexuals, people who sold land to Israel or to Jews, as well as collaborators both real and imagined. Many were undertaken by the PA's own Security Apprattusd in daylight and in public. It was no holds barred.
In the nearly 6 year conflict (12/09/87 to Oslo I) Israel killed more than 1,100 "Palestinians." Almost every death resulted from violent actions initally taken by "Palestinians." In fact, I have a scar on my cheek, 2 actually, from rocks slung at me in that conflict.
192 Israelis were killed by "Palestinians." This includes both the Kiryat Y'reem attempted Suicide Attack by a member of PIJ who grabbed the steering wheel of a Jerusalem bound bus and forcing it to sail into a deep ravine killing 14 Israelis and wounding 30 more including 11 who have severe complications up until the present. The killer? He barely had a scratch and is now doing life in our prisons. I know, I know, we are SOOOOO rutal. I mean he ruins a couple of hundred lives (counting loved ones,etc.) and there we go, putting him in prison where he will eat well, sleep safely, and study. Damned ISRAELIS!!!
It also includes the M'hola Jct. Suicide Bombing which was the first case of Suicide Bombing within Israel Proper and came at the very tail end of the Intifadeh I showing us that from start to finish it was a blood drenched affair. His car bomb only kileld 2 Israelis though. Better luck next time.
The most haunting number for me though is the more than 1,200 "Palestinians" killed by fellow "Palestinians." Of the estimated 800 "collaborators" Israel investigated 350. Of the 350, 60% had had no contact whatsoever with Israel on any level outside of normally crossing, etc. In other words, mob violence killed them. They were necklaced, they were tortured, they were raped, and many other things. Many of these killings, especially of drug addicts, were undertaken by the PA Security Apparattus.
So much for non-violence.
As for there existing "orders" from a "home grown leadership," wrong again. Well, I should admit that you are correct if you are maintaining that orders existed for a large portion of the Inteifadeh I, but they never, EVER stressed non-violence. What they called for was unfied action and violence only when commanded. Of course only a certain percentage (minority) obeyed this order and it came very late in the event so as to be of no real consequence.
It was indeed home grown however. It was apparently independant of Arafat. It began when a dump truck driver carrying potash ran into a car of Palestinians" that had stopped in the middle of the road just outside J'baliya Camp, in Gaza. 4 Arabs died and this caused the usual gossip. They claimed that it was a revenge attack for Arab terrorism which had taken place just a day or so before. It was nothing but an accident. Nothing more, nothing less.
This caused the entire Intifadeh I. It almost began a few months before though which leaves me wondering whether or not it was planned despite the lack of Intel to support it. I was in Lebanon then but the IDF was doing a sweep in Balata Camp in Shechem and all the males for that particular sector in the Camp had been gathered in a school yard fo some missionary group. Our men were assisting Intel officers in going through the men.
In alot of the minaret, the towers that stand next to most mosques, they have PA sytems. Usually they just use them to wail the Islamic Call to Prayer. That day though the muezzin (man who chants the Call) was chanting a diatribe against Israel, Jews of course, and the IDF and began talking nonsense. He whipped up the women of the sector who began trilling, I think the English word is "undulating." This is soemthing we do as well, our women I mean.
They begin trilling their tongues when happy, excited, angry, sad. You can tell what mood by the undulation. I was not there of course, only hear from the Battallion that was. I have been in that exact situation though plenty of times and when you are hearing the undulation you get shivers. Anyway, they women marched on the schoolyard and of curse were in a frenzy. They srrounded the Battalion and were engaging the Permiter Force. The CO inside the yard, I believe it was the Battallion CO radioed in for ROE, in other words he wanted to engage the women back. Thank G-D they handled it correctly . Hundreds of women would have been shot dead , no doubt.
The point though for this meandering is that it was a very violent time (and of course my own personal and unsubstantiated belief that the first Intifadeh was planned). The muezzin could have simply been an as%hole but , well we will probably never know.
"The Intifadeh II was launched in a ahil of IDF bullets.":No, it certainly was not. Airle Sharon was campaigning on the Likud Ticket, well was leading up to campaigning and was a Govt. Minister. He told the media that he was going to visit the Temple Mount.
For those who do not know, the Temple Mount os the actual holiest spot to a Jew. It is where our 2 completed Temples stood, and 2 other partially built ones as well. The last one had been stricken by lightening and had burned badly. The Byzantines had then built a Christian church atop the runis and that was standing when the Arabs first came to my nation and took Jerusalem in the first half of the 7th Century CE/AD.
The Khalifa Omar, the supreme leader of Arabs and Muslims stood atop the Mount, in front of the Church, and decided that nothing should outshine Islam. Mt. Moariah as it is known properly in English is a very high abutment in comprison to surrounding areas and he believed nothing should be seen above Islam,etc.
They then built the first of two important mosques atop the Mount. The first one being named Mosque of Omar in English. Later the Dome of the Rock, the 2nd mosque was built. The rock in the title was a rock that sat in the Temple's Holiest of Holies, the place where we belive G-D's presence actually sat on Earth.
So, we suffered and were humilated terribly for many centuries. Then, in the 48 War Jordan captured E. Jerusalem and annexed it along with the so called "WB."
Below the Mount is a very tall wall built of huge chisled blocks. This wall is known in English as the "Western Wall," and alternatively as the "Wailing Wall" because of Jews' suffering and the sorrow of the destructed Temple. In front of the wall is a plaza and this is where Jews gather from all over the world to pray.
In 48 Jordan took the Wall and actually built public rest rooms using the Wall as the 4th wall and so Muslims , and Christians literally urinated and sha^ on our Holiest shrine (holiest because the Mount is of course occupied by Muslims and Arabs).
Aside form that plaza the Wall actually meanders on for quite a distance. In those areas the Jordanians allowed Christian farmers to use the Wall as a 4th wall of animal enclosures and encouraged them to raise pigs. This sounds so much like propaganda but it is actually all quite true, unfortunately.
I am telling readers all this infromation because it is very important to understand the context of the action taken by Ariel Sharon on the day the Intifadeh II began.
Sharon told the media that he was only going to the Mount to walk and to prove a point. I) Any Jew should have the right to walk atop the Mount while still respecting the fact that Muslims have superceded us in terms of facts on the ground...and II) That an Israeli Cabinet Minister should be able to walk anywhere in the land he halps govern. I believe most rational people will see that Sharon made alot of sense on both ideas.
So Sharon and his entourage, mobbed by media, ascended the Mount. Muslims around the world were livid. "Palestinians" however began throwing rocks down at Jews in the plaza below as soon as Sharon departed amid the flashbulbs, etc.
Much later when we finally overtook Arafat's Compound (al Mookatah) in Ramallah, Intel was found in actual typed orders signed by Arafat and 2 others, coordinating details for a "Second Uprising" to take place within the near future. Arafat had even spelled out, in other papers found, how it should proceed and how it should be iniated. In other words, the Intifadeh II was micromanaged by the PA and Arafat himself.
YMU: The remark about the Intifadeh I is completely wrong. It began inviolence and was not only the first case of Suicide Bombing within Israel Proper (during the war) but also saw a horrifi number of atrocities committed by "Palestinians" against other "Palestinians." For example, it was the first case of "Necklacing" in the region.
For those who do not know, "necklacing" is the practice of placing a tyre around one's neck after it is soaked in petrol, and then lighting it on fire as the person sits there completely conscience.
They Necklaced drug addicts, homosexuals, people who sold land to Israel or to Jews, as well as collaborators both real and imagined. Many were undertaken by the PA's own Security Apprattusd in daylight and in public. It was no holds barred.
In the nearly 6 year conflict (12/09/87 to Oslo I) Israel killed more than 1,100 "Palestinians." Almost every death resulted from violent actions initally taken by "Palestinians." In fact, I have a scar on my cheek, 2 actually, from rocks slung at me in that conflict.
192 Israelis were killed by "Palestinians." This includes both the Kiryat Y'reem attempted Suicide Attack by a member of PIJ who grabbed the steering wheel of a Jerusalem bound bus and forcing it to sail into a deep ravine killing 14 Israelis and wounding 30 more including 11 who have severe complications up until the present. The killer? He barely had a scratch and is now doing life in our prisons. I know, I know, we are SOOOOO rutal. I mean he ruins a couple of hundred lives (counting loved ones,etc.) and there we go, putting him in prison where he will eat well, sleep safely, and study. Damned ISRAELIS!!!
It also includes the M'hola Jct. Suicide Bombing which was the first case of Suicide Bombing within Israel Proper and came at the very tail end of the Intifadeh I showing us that from start to finish it was a blood drenched affair. His car bomb only kileld 2 Israelis though. Better luck next time.
The most haunting number for me though is the more than 1,200 "Palestinians" killed by fellow "Palestinians." Of the estimated 800 "collaborators" Israel investigated 350. Of the 350, 60% had had no contact whatsoever with Israel on any level outside of normally crossing, etc. In other words, mob violence killed them. They were necklaced, they were tortured, they were raped, and many other things. Many of these killings, especially of drug addicts, were undertaken by the PA Security Apparattus.
So much for non-violence.
As for there existing "orders" from a "home grown leadership," wrong again. Well, I should admit that you are correct if you are maintaining that orders existed for a large portion of the Inteifadeh I, but they never, EVER stressed non-violence. What they called for was unfied action and violence only when commanded. Of course only a certain percentage (minority) obeyed this order and it came very late in the event so as to be of no real consequence.
It was indeed home grown however. It was apparently independant of Arafat. It began when a dump truck driver carrying potash ran into a car of Palestinians" that had stopped in the middle of the road just outside J'baliya Camp, in Gaza. 4 Arabs died and this caused the usual gossip. They claimed that it was a revenge attack for Arab terrorism which had taken place just a day or so before. It was nothing but an accident. Nothing more, nothing less.
This caused the entire Intifadeh I. It almost began a few months before though which leaves me wondering whether or not it was planned despite the lack of Intel to support it. I was in Lebanon then but the IDF was doing a sweep in Balata Camp in Shechem and all the males for that particular sector in the Camp had been gathered in a school yard fo some missionary group. Our men were assisting Intel officers in going through the men.
In alot of the minaret, the towers that stand next to most mosques, they have PA sytems. Usually they just use them to wail the Islamic Call to Prayer. That day though the muezzin (man who chants the Call) was chanting a diatribe against Israel, Jews of course, and the IDF and began talking nonsense. He whipped up the women of the sector who began trilling, I think the English word is "undulating." This is soemthing we do as well, our women I mean.
They begin trilling their tongues when happy, excited, angry, sad. You can tell what mood by the undulation. I was not there of course, only hear from the Battallion that was. I have been in that exact situation though plenty of times and when you are hearing the undulation you get shivers. Anyway, they women marched on the schoolyard and of curse were in a frenzy. They srrounded the Battalion and were engaging the Permiter Force. The CO inside the yard, I believe it was the Battallion CO radioed in for ROE, in other words he wanted to engage the women back. Thank G-D they handled it correctly . Hundreds of women would have been shot dead , no doubt.
The point though for this meandering is that it was a very violent time (and of course my own personal and unsubstantiated belief that the first Intifadeh was planned). The muezzin could have simply been an as%hole but , well we will probably never know.
"The Intifadeh II was launched in a ahil of IDF bullets.":No, it certainly was not. Airle Sharon was campaigning on the Likud Ticket, well was leading up to campaigning and was a Govt. Minister. He told the media that he was going to visit the Temple Mount.
For those who do not know, the Temple Mount os the actual holiest spot to a Jew. It is where our 2 completed Temples stood, and 2 other partially built ones as well. The last one had been stricken by lightening and had burned badly. The Byzantines had then built a Christian church atop the runis and that was standing when the Arabs first came to my nation and took Jerusalem in the first half of the 7th Century CE/AD.
The Khalifa Omar, the supreme leader of Arabs and Muslims stood atop the Mount, in front of the Church, and decided that nothing should outshine Islam. Mt. Moariah as it is known properly in English is a very high abutment in comprison to surrounding areas and he believed nothing should be seen above Islam,etc.
They then built the first of two important mosques atop the Mount. The first one being named Mosque of Omar in English. Later the Dome of the Rock, the 2nd mosque was built. The rock in the title was a rock that sat in the Temple's Holiest of Holies, the place where we belive G-D's presence actually sat on Earth.
So, we suffered and were humilated terribly for many centuries. Then, in the 48 War Jordan captured E. Jerusalem and annexed it along with the so called "WB."
Below the Mount is a very tall wall built of huge chisled blocks. This wall is known in English as the "Western Wall," and alternatively as the "Wailing Wall" because of Jews' suffering and the sorrow of the destructed Temple. In front of the wall is a plaza and this is where Jews gather from all over the world to pray.
In 48 Jordan took the Wall and actually built public rest rooms using the Wall as the 4th wall and so Muslims , and Christians literally urinated and sha^ on our Holiest shrine (holiest because the Mount is of course occupied by Muslims and Arabs).
Aside form that plaza the Wall actually meanders on for quite a distance. In those areas the Jordanians allowed Christian farmers to use the Wall as a 4th wall of animal enclosures and encouraged them to raise pigs. This sounds so much like propaganda but it is actually all quite true, unfortunately.
I am telling readers all this infromation because it is very important to understand the context of the action taken by Ariel Sharon on the day the Intifadeh II began.
Sharon told the media that he was only going to the Mount to walk and to prove a point. I) Any Jew should have the right to walk atop the Mount while still respecting the fact that Muslims have superceded us in terms of facts on the ground...and II) That an Israeli Cabinet Minister should be able to walk anywhere in the land he halps govern. I believe most rational people will see that Sharon made alot of sense on both ideas.
So Sharon and his entourage, mobbed by media, ascended the Mount. Muslims around the world were livid. "Palestinians" however began throwing rocks down at Jews in the plaza below as soon as Sharon departed amid the flashbulbs, etc.
Much later when we finally overtook Arafat's Compound (al Mookatah) in Ramallah, Intel was found in actual typed orders signed by Arafat and 2 others, coordinating details for a "Second Uprising" to take place within the near future. Arafat had even spelled out, in other papers found, how it should proceed and how it should be iniated. In other words, the Intifadeh II was micromanaged by the PA and Arafat himself.
PART IV:
"Intifadeh II's 'non-violanece' (sic) was met by extreme violence (by the IDF).": Not at all. I will ask you to simply produce a single time where a non-violent protest or any other case of non-violent action resulted in violence by any Israeli entity.
I agree with you both you that at times the actions of "Palestinians" plays directly into Israeli objectives. However, Israel is not some nefarious entity out to destroy "Palestinians" (as opposed to all "Palestinian" militant groups with one exception and even that exception has engaged in extreme violence towards non-combtants and has allied itself with the more violent of the rest).
"Palestinians" are their own worst enemies.
"Intifadeh II's 'non-violanece' (sic) was met by extreme violence (by the IDF).": Not at all. I will ask you to simply produce a single time where a non-violent protest or any other case of non-violent action resulted in violence by any Israeli entity.
I agree with you both you that at times the actions of "Palestinians" plays directly into Israeli objectives. However, Israel is not some nefarious entity out to destroy "Palestinians" (as opposed to all "Palestinian" militant groups with one exception and even that exception has engaged in extreme violence towards non-combtants and has allied itself with the more violent of the rest).
"Palestinians" are their own worst enemies.
Idaho: "Rachamim's posts are confusing.": Yes, I agree. It is very confusing when a person repats what another poster says, attributes it to them, and then responds at length and pointedly.
"Rachamim's posts are barely readable.": And yet people read them so ...
"Rachamim's posts are mired in false details...": Gee, I sure do not want to have a detailed post! Let me simply engage in ingorant generalities are debate semantics. Got it, thanks. Thing is, you have not proven a single thing to be false up until now.
Sure, you have complained about my paraphrasing, you have debated semantics over whether or not "Secret police being on someone like a rash" is "brutal" or not..., you have insulted me several times including using an expletive and here I am with "false detaills."
Yet you can only insult. Hmmmm... If I had to pick between doing 2 things, calling a person nasty names or being ACCUSED of saying false things I would surely opt for the second. I would rather you insult me than to call you names. Yes, I am terrible. Surely do not understand how I manage to make it through the day.
"Rachamim continually misquotes people.": I do not know how old you are buyt you might want to research what "paraphrasing" means. A tisket a tasket. It is one and the same. You argue that your talking about how Israeli "Secret Police" are "all over" people (sic - you have to love such naievete that a person would actually use the term "Secret Police" with relation to Israel like the Shah is running the country) does not mean you were calling them "brutal" and expect me to think I was wrong? Whatever. The person who has here to fore only managed to insult me now expects me to care?
"Greater Israel."You are about 2 decades behind the times. Perhaps you might spend some time researching? "Greater Israel" fell out of popular vernacular within Israel anyway, more than a decade ago. In case it has not come your way yet, Israel fully ceded Gaza in totality and now wishes to cede at least 94% of the so called "WB." The remaining differential being comepnsated by anequal percentage of land from Israel Proper.
What is kind of strange is that even with that comment you ,amaged to insult me. I will not try to analyse a person I have never met but I will pray that you find happiness, whoever you are.
I rather expect that this will be the last time I engage you seeing as how you have yet to offer a grain of substance. I get insults here by the truck load, so I certainly do not need yet another "genius." You add nothing, and yet neither do you take anything away. You exist merely to exist and as far as I am concerned I already spend far too much time with this site.
Ergo, unless you pointedly address me, and do so with regard to factual matters related to thread subject matter, you will not have to bother with my horrendous posts. Cool? Hope so.
P.S.: That IGNORE function is very versatile.
"Rachamim's posts are barely readable.": And yet people read them so ...
"Rachamim's posts are mired in false details...": Gee, I sure do not want to have a detailed post! Let me simply engage in ingorant generalities are debate semantics. Got it, thanks. Thing is, you have not proven a single thing to be false up until now.
Sure, you have complained about my paraphrasing, you have debated semantics over whether or not "Secret police being on someone like a rash" is "brutal" or not..., you have insulted me several times including using an expletive and here I am with "false detaills."
Yet you can only insult. Hmmmm... If I had to pick between doing 2 things, calling a person nasty names or being ACCUSED of saying false things I would surely opt for the second. I would rather you insult me than to call you names. Yes, I am terrible. Surely do not understand how I manage to make it through the day.
"Rachamim continually misquotes people.": I do not know how old you are buyt you might want to research what "paraphrasing" means. A tisket a tasket. It is one and the same. You argue that your talking about how Israeli "Secret Police" are "all over" people (sic - you have to love such naievete that a person would actually use the term "Secret Police" with relation to Israel like the Shah is running the country) does not mean you were calling them "brutal" and expect me to think I was wrong? Whatever. The person who has here to fore only managed to insult me now expects me to care?
"Greater Israel."You are about 2 decades behind the times. Perhaps you might spend some time researching? "Greater Israel" fell out of popular vernacular within Israel anyway, more than a decade ago. In case it has not come your way yet, Israel fully ceded Gaza in totality and now wishes to cede at least 94% of the so called "WB." The remaining differential being comepnsated by anequal percentage of land from Israel Proper.
What is kind of strange is that even with that comment you ,amaged to insult me. I will not try to analyse a person I have never met but I will pray that you find happiness, whoever you are.
I rather expect that this will be the last time I engage you seeing as how you have yet to offer a grain of substance. I get insults here by the truck load, so I certainly do not need yet another "genius." You add nothing, and yet neither do you take anything away. You exist merely to exist and as far as I am concerned I already spend far too much time with this site.
Ergo, unless you pointedly address me, and do so with regard to factual matters related to thread subject matter, you will not have to bother with my horrendous posts. Cool? Hope so.
P.S.: That IGNORE function is very versatile.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
You make this far too easy.
Apart from the fact that the IDF have shot at me whilst I was engaged in peaceful protest, the film Jeremy Hardy vs the Israeli Army includes footage of the IDF firing on a peaceful march in Bethlehem.
Tom Hurndall is another obvious example if only because an Israeli court agreed that there was no crossfire and two soldiers have been convicted - so it avoids all that tiresome nonsense deciding between competing versions of events and whether throwing stones at an armoured vehicle justifies shooting to kill (poor scared ickle soldiers
). This is not a new phenomenon. It just doesn't get reported much when there aren't internationals around to witness it. Odd, that.
YMU: "The film by Leila Sansour, "Jeremy Hardy.": Se, here is the thig. AS in the fiml, yusee oneide firig but you do not see the entire context. You do not see someone firing first, you do not see see a mark in a wndow or nest, you do not hear a transmision telling the Squd or Patrol that the actors are armed...All you see is the viewpint of a slanted filmmaker. Are you going to really suggest Sansour is not ideoloically opposed to Israel's existence?
OF course she is and if you want, we can talk about it.The point then would be how valuable is her film . IF I produce a link to a review or clip by a Kahni filmmaker, is it valid source now?
You say that your subjective expereince includes being shot at while at apeaceful demonstratio in Bet'l'chem. Sorry, but when did it happen? I am sure that youwill have no problem telling me the exact day and tme of day. I know that if I were a non-combatant in a foreign nation, and was shot at without provocation, I would never forget anythng from that day.
Indeed, I do not think I have ever forgotten a single time that I was shot at, and I have literally hundreds of exprieneces from which to draw my memory.
SO, please let me know what I askedand wecan discuss it further. I can tell you here though, without knowig anything, that it never happened. There are indeed cases where deranged individuals commit crmes. Happens in Israel, happen in Greenland. Institutionally though, it is not Israel policy OR practice.
Tom Hurndall, which you mentioned was murdere by an Israeli Arab in the IDF. The man is in prison. You stated 2 people though What 2? The murderer was acting alone, notin concert with anyone else and has always said (although at first he blamed Hurndall) that it is not IDF policy .
Regressing to Bet'l'chem, it is prhaps the most heavil innundatd f "WB" cities in terms of CCTV and other foms of electronic monitoring. In addition, toursits from the world over are ALWAYS present nd had there been an event as the one you describe, it would have been International News.
Did you or anyone else ever make a formal complaint? Did the media ever report on yor claim? Anything? Just your word that you were there and the IDF, unrpovoked,engaged a peaceful crowd? Hope you will not be too offfended when I tell you that of course I doubt you.
"Throwing stones at armoured vehichles.": I though you have been there? If so, you do not need me to tell you that stones are not usually "thrown." Stnes are "slung." Using a single handed ling shot thy can easly break 120 kmh.Ever get a palm siedrock going 120 kmh into your face? Then factor in that stone throwers provide coverfor knneling Kalash men firing on the go. Alot oftimes Moloovs are tossed into the mix, sometimes even genades.
As for armour, people are not engaged for stoning armoured nything. They are engaged when there is I imminent threat of life or limb to either IDF or other non-combatants. If not lethal rounds can safely be utilised they are.
"Just does not get reported mch when Internationalists (sic) are not there to report it.": riiiiight. Because terrorists masquerading as Activivists are so trustworthy. G fgu...I mean, Bet'l'chm is only filled with tourists EVERYDAY OF THE WEEK. Only "Internatonalists" are able to see things clearly. I offer another take: It is more than strange that "Internationalists" are the only ones reporting it. Hmmm...
As you said, "make it too easy."
OF course she is and if you want, we can talk about it.The point then would be how valuable is her film . IF I produce a link to a review or clip by a Kahni filmmaker, is it valid source now?
You say that your subjective expereince includes being shot at while at apeaceful demonstratio in Bet'l'chem. Sorry, but when did it happen? I am sure that youwill have no problem telling me the exact day and tme of day. I know that if I were a non-combatant in a foreign nation, and was shot at without provocation, I would never forget anythng from that day.
Indeed, I do not think I have ever forgotten a single time that I was shot at, and I have literally hundreds of exprieneces from which to draw my memory.
SO, please let me know what I askedand wecan discuss it further. I can tell you here though, without knowig anything, that it never happened. There are indeed cases where deranged individuals commit crmes. Happens in Israel, happen in Greenland. Institutionally though, it is not Israel policy OR practice.
Tom Hurndall, which you mentioned was murdere by an Israeli Arab in the IDF. The man is in prison. You stated 2 people though What 2? The murderer was acting alone, notin concert with anyone else and has always said (although at first he blamed Hurndall) that it is not IDF policy .
Regressing to Bet'l'chem, it is prhaps the most heavil innundatd f "WB" cities in terms of CCTV and other foms of electronic monitoring. In addition, toursits from the world over are ALWAYS present nd had there been an event as the one you describe, it would have been International News.
Did you or anyone else ever make a formal complaint? Did the media ever report on yor claim? Anything? Just your word that you were there and the IDF, unrpovoked,engaged a peaceful crowd? Hope you will not be too offfended when I tell you that of course I doubt you.
"Throwing stones at armoured vehichles.": I though you have been there? If so, you do not need me to tell you that stones are not usually "thrown." Stnes are "slung." Using a single handed ling shot thy can easly break 120 kmh.Ever get a palm siedrock going 120 kmh into your face? Then factor in that stone throwers provide coverfor knneling Kalash men firing on the go. Alot oftimes Moloovs are tossed into the mix, sometimes even genades.
As for armour, people are not engaged for stoning armoured nything. They are engaged when there is I imminent threat of life or limb to either IDF or other non-combatants. If not lethal rounds can safely be utilised they are.
"Just does not get reported mch when Internationalists (sic) are not there to report it.": riiiiight. Because terrorists masquerading as Activivists are so trustworthy. G fgu...I mean, Bet'l'chm is only filled with tourists EVERYDAY OF THE WEEK. Only "Internatonalists" are able to see things clearly. I offer another take: It is more than strange that "Internationalists" are the only ones reporting it. Hmmm...
As you said, "make it too easy."
By the way, your claim was that the Intifadeh I was non-violent. Iroved that this was not the case. Any facts to dispute it?
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Here this is for you-seeing as you clearly haven't got a clue what the word means.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=57525&dict=CALD
Gradnma: Uh, you DID read that definition, right? Care to tell me how I was wrong? It says EXACTLY what I said (except paraphrased hahahah).
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
You claim your misquoting is nothing but paraphrasing. Thats utter nonsense and well you know it.
Gradnma: Sorry, but you still have not proven anything. Show me where I have misquoted and I will be happy to address that particular issue.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
You've proven nothing either. In fact, the way you tend to take cover beneath a semantic undergrowth is as embarrassing as it is amusing.
Thank you. Now back to the show...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
What "show"? You've proven nothing.
There is a difference between misquoting and paraphrasing. I don't suppose you will ever learn what that difference is.
There is a difference between misquoting and paraphrasing. I don't suppose you will ever learn what that difference is.
And now a word from our sponsor...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
You probably don't know this, but Jeremy Hardy is Jewish. Unfortunately for you, he is rather left wing and therefore, in your eyes, a "self-hating Jew".
Nino. YMU has a thing about "Self Hating Jews?" Or is it like that challenge you issued to me before I left America a few days agio, to provide you with a link proving Mandela founded
Spear? You surely have me perplexed now.
Spear? You surely have me perplexed now.
Similar threads
