Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Spymaster]

The Israelis' have done it - ish - in the 90's a Palestinian bombmaker ordered a new mobile phone.

They intercepted it, filled it with plastic, and sent it on its way. they rang him, he answered, and the bomb blew his head off.

Before that too.

In 1972 they took out a PLO representative with an exploding telephone in Paris, in response to the Munich Olympics murders.

 

[Idris2002]

Hezbollah

who were planning to bomb tourists and a military band a glorious legitimate Target whose sluaghter would have brought a socialist Ireland one step closer. the same "people" who had no problem shooting babies or blowing up children. 30 years of murder and mayhem and they achieved fuck all

Gerry got a nice holiday home, in fairness.

It was explosives in the pagers and they came from Taiwan, according to this:

Hezbollah claims that detonating pagers were packed with explosives before arriving in Lebanon

The group believes that Israeli intelligence infiltrated the production process.

www.thejournal.ie

Should have gone to Huawei.

 

[Idris2002]

Before that too.

In 1972 they took out a PLO representative with an exploding telephone in Paris, in response to the Munich Olympics murders.

They also murdered an innocent waiter in Norway in the course of that op.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The definition of terrorism is action by a non-state actor. States are allowed to be violent. They have a licence to kill. However, there is such a thing as international humanitarian law, and states can commit war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. This is a war crime, I would say.

So far nobody has claimed responsibility for this action. Can we call it terrorism at the moment? What then happens if Israel does admit responsibility? Does it cease to be terrorism and become summat else?

 

[Spymaster]

The interesting thing will be finding out who were the people who got the pagers - Hezbollah is a large organisation, it has perhaps 80k members, split between full-timers and part-timers, with the full-timers at perhaps 10% of it's strength.

Also, how Israel has actually done this.

Have they infiltrated the factory making the pagers and bombed-up the whole production; or somehow created a large and sudden demand for pagers within Hezbollah, perhaps by cyber-fucking their old ones, and introduced the explosives to a specific order?

There could well be several thousand pagers still out there with bombs in them, being carried by ordinary people. I'd be binning mine now if I had one.

 

[Yossarian]

They've literally blown the balls off thousands of their opponents. I'm not saying it's right. Just that it's very inventive. Apparently most of the thousands of injuries in hospitals in Beirut are to the groin area. I don't think they were trying to kill them.

The pagers reportedly beeped for a few seconds before exploding so a lot of people lost hands or some or all of their fingers, or had horrific facial injuries - trying to blow the hands off thousands of people seems like some pretty medieval shit to me, I don't know what genius thought up an operation that would kill a tiny proportion of the targeted people and leave thousands of presumably very angry and vengeful ones alive with varying degrees of disablity

 

[planetgeli]

Gerry got a nice holiday home, in fairness.

It was explosives in the pagers and they came from Taiwan, according to this:

Hezbollah claims that detonating pagers were packed with explosives before arriving in Lebanon

The group believes that Israeli intelligence infiltrated the production process.

www.thejournal.ie

Should have gone to Huawei.

Or not, according to this.

Pagers in deadly attack on Hezbollah ‘made in Europe’, as Middle East braces for reprisals

Taiwanese company Gold Apollo says a company in Europe made the pagers used in extraordinary attack in Lebanon that Hezbollah blames on Israel

www.theguardian.com

On Wednesday, the company’s founder Hsu Ching-Kuang, denied it had made the pagers, saying they were manufactured by a company in Europe that had the right to use its brand. “The product was not ours. It was only that it had our brand on it,’ he said. “We are a responsible company. This is very embarrassing,” he said.

 

[kebabking]

Also, how Israel has actually done this.

Have they infiltrated the factory making the pagers and bombed-up the whole production; or somehow created a large and sudden demand for pagers within Hezbollah, perhaps by cyber-fucking their old ones, and introduced the explosives to a specific order?

There could well be several thousand pagers still out there with bombs in them, being carried by ordinary people. I'd be binning mine now if I had one.

I'd put solid money on the Israelis getting a whiff that Hezbollah wanted to buy a large number of pagers, they bought up a stash, refitted them with PE, and sold them onto Hezbollah.

Shashank Joshi, defence editor at the Economist, has a story that the pagers were manufactured under license by a secondary company while retaining the Apollo branding. They'll probably have gone through half a dozen middle men - not least because Hezbollah won't be ringing up Samsung and asking for a quote on 5000 pagers.

Apparently Hezbollah have been wanting to move away from phones, which try see as less secure that they'd like - and they'd be correct. The Israelis might originally have just thought they could go for a huge data harvest, and then someone had a cunning idea.

 

[scalyboy]

Good point - but wouldn't it make sense to wait until the tanks were rolling before doing that? Unless I missed it, there's been nothing about Israel massing troops in the north for an imminent attack.

BBC report says exploding pagers were intended for use in an actual conflict with Hezbollah, but Israel feared their scheme had been exposed so they detonated the pagers earlier than planned.

(see Live: 07.56)

‘Israeli and US sources tell Axios and Al-Monitor the explosions were initially planned as the opening move in an "all-out" offensive against Hezbollah.

But in recent days, Israel became concerned Hezbollah had become aware of the plan - so they were detonated early.”

"It was a use it or lose it moment," a US official tells Axios.’

 

[kebabking]

... I don't know what genius thought up an operation that would kill a tiny proportion of the targeted people and leave thousands of presumably very angry and vengeful ones alive with varying degrees of disablity

Conversely, given that these people were either members of, or affiliated with, Hezbollah, it's probably safe to say they were fairly anti-Israel already - now they're just fairly anti- Israel, but without hands or eyes.

Which, you know, might have some impact on their effectiveness.

 

[Pickman's model]

Conversely, given that these people were either members of, or affiliated with, Hezbollah, it's probably safe to say they were fairly anti-Israel already - now they're just fairly anti- Israel, but without hands or eyes.

Which, you know, might have some impact on their effectiveness.

As happened with eg Horatio Nelson and so on.

 

[agricola]

Did this post on international law and armed conflict

Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Agree international law on armed conflict has been more tolerant. Though this is not an accident.

Its partly due to it being a form of law agreed amongst states.

Noura Erakat writes in her book about she calls the legal work that Israel put in to push the envelope of what is accepted.

In the article and in more detail in her book she shows that on where Israel goes other countries follow.

And Israel puts a lot of effort into the legal side of its wars. Might sound surprising but it does.

Kevbad the Bad raises good point in there post.

If Hezbollah or Hamas had fixed the pagers of IDF/ government people in Israel. Whether on duty or not. And blown up their pagers this attack would have been condemned within minutes by western governments as terrorism. Pure and simple

That bit certainly, I mean even the entirely peaceful marches that saw hundreds of thousands protest about this ongoing horror became hate marches with the stroke of a pen.

 

[two sheds]

BBC report says exploding pagers were intended for use in an actual conflict with Hezbollah, but Israel feared their scheme had been exposed so they detonated the pagers earlier than planned.

(see Live: 07.56)

‘Israeli and US sources tell Axios and Al-Monitor the explosions were initially planned as the opening move in an "all-out" offensive against Hezbollah.

But in recent days, Israel became concerned Hezbollah had become aware of the plan - so they were detonated early.”

"It was a use it or lose it moment," a US official tells Axios.’

Ah that's ok then - not terrorism at all because they had no choice

 

[tim]

[/URL]

Should have gone to Huawei.

I wouldn't trust a Geordie pager

 

[Yossarian]

Conversely, given that these people were either members of, or affiliated with, Hezbollah, it's probably safe to say they were fairly anti-Israel already - now they're just fairly anti- Israel, but without hands or eyes.

Which, you know, might have some impact on their effectiveness.

In the short term, Hezbollah might have lost some effectiveness but I don't think Israel will benefit in the longer term from the hardening of attitudes and new Hezbollah recruits from those affected by the attack - an explosion at an adult's waist height is head height for a little kid and there are reportedly a lot of children among the injured

 

[Spymaster]

I don't know what genius thought up an operation that would kill a tiny proportion of the targeted people and leave thousands of presumably very angry and vengeful ones alive with varying degrees of disablity

Nah. These people were already sworn to the total destruction of the State of Israel, and by virtue of the fact that they were carrying the pagers, probably fully dedicated to achieving that aim. I can't see that blowing their hands and bollocks off is going to make them any more committed or dangerous. Just less capable.

 

[tim]

As happened with eg Horatio Nelson and so on.

It will certainly make it easier to turn a blind eye towards some of their more morally ambiguous military activities.

 

[krtek a houby]

Hezbollah

who were planning to bomb tourists and a military band a glorious legitimate Target whose sluaghter would have brought a socialist Ireland one step closer. the same "people" who had no problem shooting babies or blowing up children. 30 years of murder and mayhem and they achieved fuck all

Not at all. They beat the British at their own game and we are much more closer to that glorious socialist Ireland as a result.

Fragile snowflakes still wee themselves at the very thought of it.

 

[two sheds]

Nah. These people were already sworn to the total destruction of the State of Israel, and by virtue of the fact that they were carrying the pagers, probably fully dedicated to achieving that aim. I can't see that blowing their hands and bollocks off is going to make them any more committed or dangerous. Just less capable.

Would you use the same argument if Hezbolla had sent exploding phones into Israel to blow up some IDF people and other innocent Israelis?

 

[DownwardDog]

Ah that's ok then - not terrorism at all because they had no choice

It's so stylish and clever that it transcends normal terrorism. Like Leila Khaled.

 

[Spymaster]

Would you use the same argument if Hezbolla had sent exploding phones into Israel to blow up some IDF people and other innocent Israelis?

Yes. Of course.

 

[two sheds]

Yes. Of course.

using the same language?

I can't see that blowing their hands and bollocks off is going to make them any more committed or dangerous. Just less capable.

 

[Spymaster]

using the same language?

Absolutely.

 

[two sheds]

including the kids who were blown up then

 

[Spymaster]

including the kids who were blown up then

Yes. That's extremely unfortunate.

What exactly are you objecting to here?

 

[Yossarian]

I can't see that blowing their hands and bollocks off is going to make them any more committed or dangerous. Just less capable.

Less capable, but possibly more amenable to becoming suicide bombers

 

[two sheds]

It seemed your statement preceding was almost excusing the action

These people were already sworn to the total destruction of the State of Israel, and by virtue of the fact that they were carrying the pagers, probably fully dedicated to achieving that aim.

eta: and I wouldn't myself use the phrase 'extremely unfortunate' for the other casualties

 

[Spymaster]

It seemed your statement preceding was almost excusing the action

You disagree with what you've quoted there?

 

[Spymaster]

eta: and I wouldn't myself use the phrase 'extremely unfortunate' for the other casualties

What would you use?

 

[two sheds]

uncaring result of terrorist action might do it. It just seems to follow the "Israel has a right to defend itself " narrative.