Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Israel state has right to defend itself within international law.

It supposedly being a western democratic state that believes in the rule of law.

I don't see how this pager attack fits into that.

 

[elbows]

I don't see how this pager attack fits into that.

It will probably be handled in the same way as the long term stuff that doesnt fit either, such as illegal settlements. 'concerns' and 'calls for deescalation' but a failure to fully condemn or use language like 'terrorism'. Which we wont be surprised by because we are used to propaganda from our own countries that makes heavy use of double standards, where the language used reflects not only the acts in isolation, but whether those carrying out the acts are considered friend or foe.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Or the SAS murdering Irish people in Gibraltar

IRA. Irish Republican Army.

Read up about the rules re soldiers operating in plain clothes.

 

[Spymaster]

Oh and your first reaction to 7 October was to sententiously demand that every poster condemn Hamas as despicable terrorists and murderers. If I recall you spent several pages pursuing this line then subsequently went quiet.

I went quiet because I stuck the thread on ignore.

Over 20 years of posting and reading here has given me more than ample opportunity to draw such inferences, as well as to develop a healthy disgust of the extreme left wrt Middle East politics.

 

[elbows]

Continuing my brief look at the use of language, I see condemnations from EU involve the dreaded collateral damage euphemism, with the t word missing in action as expected.

“Even if the attacks seem to have been targeted, they had heavy, indiscriminate collateral damages among civilians, including children among the victims,” Josep Borrell said.

“I consider this situation extremely worrying. I can only condemn these attacks that endanger the security and stability of Lebanon, and increase the risk of escalation in the region,” he added.

He said that the European Union wants to avert an all-out war because it would have “heavy consequences for the entire region and beyond”.

I havent seen deeper reporting of these quotes yet, got the above from Al Jazeera live updates page. ‘All-out war’ feared as Lebanon pager blasts toll climbs to 12

 

[krtek a houby]

IRA. Irish Republican Army.

Read up about the rules re soldiers operating in plain clothes.

British rules?

 

[elbows]

Over 20 years of posting and reading here has given me more than ample opportunity to draw such inferences, as well as to develop a healthy disgust of the extreme left wrt Middle East politics.

If they didnt exist you would have to make them up, to provide cover for a lopsided view on what forms of murder, and by whom, you consider justified and proportionate.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I cannot support this action, whoever did it. Had it only been Hezbollah that got their heads blown off, fine, but the number of civilian casualties is truly shocking.

If it was Israel, what on earth do they think they are going to achieve? Fighting a war on two fronts simultaneously is insane. They are also alienating allies by the day.

 

[Sasaferrato]

British rules?

Geneva Convention rules.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It will probably be handled in the same way as the long term stuff that doesnt fit either, such as illegal settlements. 'concerns' and 'calls for deescalation' but a failure to fully condemn or use language like 'terrorism'. Which we wont be surprised by because we are used to propaganda from our own countries that makes heavy use of double standards, where the language used reflects not only the acts in isolation, but whether those carrying out the acts are considered friend or foe.

The Irish government has gone far further than the UK ever will. While they are still indulging in double standards, they are at least demonstrating some humanity.

There are isolated examples of other Western governments doing similar, notably Spain, although none has gone as far as to sever diplomatic relations, which surely is the only moral response to a state engaged in genocide.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Our pathetic minister for support of Israel David Lammy comment.

Notice no criticism of IDF here. Or Israel.

He is scum just like Starmer and that turncoat Rayner

 

[Spymaster]

Geneva Convention rules.

I never understand why Irish republicans bang on about Flavius like it was some terrible crime when they could simply cite Bloody Sunday, which is far less defensible.

 

[elbows]

I cannot support this action, whoever did it. Had it only been Hezbollah that got their heads blown off, fine, but the number of civilian casualties is truly shocking.

If it was Israel, what on earth do they think they are going to achieve? Fighting a war on two fronts simultaneously is insane. They are also alienating allies by the day.

Likely they either want an escalation or at the very least to avoid a deescalation. They want to show off their capabilities, for a bunch of reasons including the idea that this has some kind of deterrent effect, and to restore some form of 'credibility' to the damaged reputation of their intelligence agencies. And they wanted to degrade some of the capabilities of Hezbollah, although if certain reports are to be believed then they ended up doing this at a non-optimum moment due to fears that this particular scheme was about to be exposed, rather than doing it with timing fully aligned to a broader conflict with Hezbollah.

As for alienating allies, they probably correctly assume that they have traditionally had a lot of lattitude in this area. And they are used to pushing their luck on that, beceause they are shielded by the bigger picture and long term US etc strategic interests in the region. It is always possible that they will eventually miscalculate, and looking at a broader global picture they have alienated some countries that are not so wedded to particular regional strategic interests of empire, but all the same the question 'how far is too far?' when it comes to Israeli actions tends to have a depressing answer.

 

[elbows]

The Irish government has gone far further than the UK ever will. While they are still indulging in double standards, they are at least demonstrating some humanity.

There are isolated examples of other Western governments doing similar, notably Spain, although none has gone as far as to sever diplomatic relations, which surely is the only moral response to a state engaged in genocide.

Yes, and the last vivid example of this also included Norway, earlier this year:

https://www.reuters.com/world/spain-ireland-norway-set-recognise-palestinian-statehood-2024-05-28/

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Extending the war into Lebanon also provides a distraction from the genocide in Gaza. Hezbollah can credibly be said to have an organised army that is ranged against Israel. What Israel is doing in Gaza isn't actually a war between two sides. It is a systematic slaughter.

And for the sake of those with comprehension difficulties, Hezbollah have done their bit to shower misery onto the Lebanese people over the last 40 years.

 

[krtek a houby]

Geneva Convention rules.

Executing unarmed Irish citizens seems to break a few rules, no?

Anyway, something for another thread - sorry didn't wish to derail.

 

[Elpenor]

British rules?

War starts at midnight

 

[two sheds]

I went quiet because I stuck the thread on ignore.

Over 20 years of posting and reading here has given me more than ample opportunity to draw such inferences, as well as to develop a healthy disgust of the extreme left wrt Middle East politics.

if you're labeling the urban people who post on here as the 'extreme left', you won't mind me remarking that the extreme right who you're seeming to align with has universally shown restraint and even-handed analysis.

 

[Spymaster]

if you're labeling the urban people who post on here as the 'extreme left', you won't mind me remarking that the extreme right who you're seeming to align with has universally shown restraint and even-handed analysis.

This is the trouble with spending your life in this little bubble. A total loss of perspective as to what extreme right or even right-wing, actually is.

 

[JimW]

Was reading this earlier, which despite the date presume was written before news of the pager bombs, argument seems to be that while Israel may go for a war in Lebanon it doesn't really make much sense in security terms:

Despite all the martial talk, it remains unclear what the Israelis hope to gain from escalating the war in Lebanon, which may involve an attempt to invade the country’s south. The equation hasn’t changed fundamentally in months. It seems Israel has two major options in dealing with Lebanon: widening the free-fire zone along the border so that Hezbollah cannot mount cross-border attacks; or, occupying parts of southern Lebanon and creating another version of the security belt Israel established decades ago, which means maintaining an occupying force in Lebanese territory indefinitely.
How either of these options will restore stability and security to northern Israel is a mystery.

A Rumor of War

Israeli officials have spoken repeatedly about an imminent military campaign against Lebanon, but things are more complicated.

carnegieendowment.org

 

[two sheds]

This is the trouble with spending your life in this little bubble. A total loss of perspective as to what extreme right or even right-wing, actually is.

Indeed, while you regularly go on about "lefties" and and the "extreme left" - you obviously consider yourself to be part of the moderate right or even neither-left-nor-right while pushing a right wing narrative. If you talk about the extreme left it's only fair that those on the left (I'd call myself a democratic socialist) can talk about the extreme right.

 

[Spymaster]

Indeed, while you regularly go on about "lefties" and and the "extreme left" - you obviously consider yourself to be part of the moderate right or even neither-left-nor-right while pushing a right wing narrative. If you talk about the extreme left it's only fair that those on the left (I'd call myself a democratic socialist) can talk about the extreme right.

Well again, no right-wing narrative has been "pushed" on this thread and the fact that you consider there to have been, rather illustrates my point. But yes! If you consider it only fair to speciously label views to feel you're winning some kind of point back, then knock yourself out, Sheds!

 

[two sheds]

Well again, no right-wing narrative has been "pushed" on this thread and the fact that you consider there to have been, rather illustrates my point. But yes! If you consider it only fair to speciously label views to feel you're winning some kind of point back, then knock yourself out, Sheds!

tell you what, if you stop speciously labeling views on a thread that has overwhelmingly expressed horror at the slaughter of Palestinians as "extreme left" to make some kind of point, then I'll stop with the balancing extreme right narrative

 

[Spymaster]

tell you what, if you stop speciously labeling views on a thread that has overwhelmingly expressed horror at the slaughter of Palestinians as "extreme left" to make some kind of point, then I'll stop with the balancing extreme right narrative

But I don't care whether you stop or not.

 

[two sheds]

your response before that one seems to suggest you do care

eta ... but anyway I apologize to people for the derail.

 

[Spymaster]

your response before that one seems to suggest you do care

If that's your perception, you prove me right once more.

Again, knock yourself out!

 

[tim]

PTK post wasn't saying this was unique to Israel. So not sure what your point is.

PTK was saying in their view it was a war crime.

Secondly BBC report says nine people killed including one child and 2800 wounded.

Just wondering what you regard as indiscriminate. As looks to me that a lot of bystanders have been injured. Including one child killed. Unless all of them were Hamas looks to me that this was indiscriminate.

Hezbollah blames Israel after deadly pager explosions in Lebanon

Nine people have been killed and 2,800 wounded by the blasts, the Lebanese health ministry says.

www.google.com

It's unlikely that any of them were Hamas as those targeted were from Hezbollah. As to being discriminate or indiscriminate, as it blew up the pagers of Hezbollah fighters and cadres, so it was more discriminate in relative terms, and presumably less of a war crime than the attacks that have led to thousands of civillians being murdered in Gazan hospitals and refugee camps by the IDF; the murder of Druze kids playing football Majdal Shams by Hezbollah; or the slaughter of non-combatants by Hamas on October the 7th last year.

 

[tim]

If this had been a movie it would have been dismissed as unbelievable.
I can just imagine the guy who thought of it trying to pitch it to his boss.
'"Let's plant little bombs in a load of pagers and distribute them to Hezbollah"
"Dude what have you been smoking?"

Like 9/11 and the Hamas hang gliders, it's movie inspired propaganda.

 

[Bingoman]

Was reading this earlier, which despite the date presume was written before news of the pager bombs, argument seems to be that while Israel may go for a war in Lebanon it doesn't really make much sense in security terms:

A Rumor of War

Israeli officials have spoken repeatedly about an imminent military campaign against Lebanon, but things are more complicated.

carnegieendowment.org

Does Lebanon have an army apart from Hezbollah?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Part of the problem, a big part, is the need to include batshit crazy extremists in government.

I was just thinking last night that if Reform continue to grow, and a hard left socialist party is formed and wins seats, we are headed for unexplored territory.

Imagine Farage holding the balance, no one able to form a government without his support.

Chilling, unlikely, but chilling none the less.