Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Idris2002]

Not at all. They beat the British at their own game and we are much more closer to that glorious socialist Ireland as a result.

Fragile snowflakes still wee themselves at the very thought of it.

Step away from the Diaspora

 

[krtek a houby]

Step away from the Diaspora

Most of the diaspora where am at aren't much bothered. About home or the butchery in Gaza. Ime, obviously.

 

[Spymaster]

uncaring result of terrorist action might do it.

Do you use the same terminology every time Hezbollah and Hamas murder people? By their standards, this particular Israeli action seems considered and precise.

 

[agricola]

Do you use the same terminology every time Hezbollah and Hamas murder people?

By their standards, this particular Israeli action seems considered and precise.

Not sure they are the right adjectives - targeted maybe, but there are reports in the Israeli press that they set them off because they feared it was about to be discovered.

As part of an invasion or a response to an attack this might be said to be considered, but if the reports are true this sounds more vindictive than anything else.

 

[planetgeli]

Do you use the same terminology every time Hezbollah and Hamas murder people?

Nobody here supports Hezbollah and/or Hamas.

By their standards,

Is that the bar then? What Hezbollah or Hamas do?

this particular Israeli action seems considered and precise.

It really doesn't.

 

[two sheds]

Do you use the same terminology every time Hezbollah and Hamas murder people? By their standards, this particular Israeli action seems considered and precise.

Yes when they target innocent civilians I think I do. I wouldn't describe the murders of Israeli civilians on October 7th as "extremely unfortunate" for example.

 

[Aladdin]

who were planning to bomb tourists and a military band a glorious legitimate Target

No bomb.
Unarmed.
Gunned down by SAS.
Fuck off you idiot.

 

[Spymaster]

Not sure they are the right adjectives - targeted maybe, but there are reports in the Israeli press that they set them off because they feared it was about to be discovered.

As part of an invasion or a response to an attack this might be said to be considered, but if the reports are true this sounds more vindictive than anything else.

We need to be careful about reading too much into what's being reported just a few hours after the attack. The various propaganda mills will be in full swing. On the other hand they might just have got everyone that they were targeting. Either way, as you say, it was targeted. Rather different to launching rockets into civilian areas or dropping bombs.

 

[planetgeli]

We need to be careful about reading too much into what's being reported just a few hours after the attack. The various propaganda mills will be in full swing. On the other hand they might just have got everyone that they were targeting. Either way, as you say, it was targeted. Rather different to launching rockets into civilian areas or dropping bombs.

You used the word 'precise' a few posts ago.

Setting off detonations next to a stall of oranges or whatever is neither targeted or precise.

 

[Spymaster]

Nobody here supports Hezbollah and/or Hamas.

I don't believe that's true.

Is that the bar then? What Hezbollah or Hamas do?

It's certainly one of them when considering the situation there. It's very difficult to accord the moral high ground to either side when they're acting in kind.

 

[planetgeli]

I don't believe that's true.

Name names?

It's certainly one of them when considering the situation there. It's very difficult to accord the moral high ground to either side when they're acting in kind.

Then stop with the 'targeted and precise' bollocks mate. Because it looks like you are defending this.

 

[MickiQ]

If this had been a movie it would have been dismissed as unbelievable.
I can just imagine the guy who thought of it trying to pitch it to his boss.
'"Let's plant little bombs in a load of pagers and distribute them to Hezbollah"
"Dude what have you been smoking?"

 

[tim]

Nah. These people were already sworn to the total destruction of the State of Israel, and by virtue of the fact that they were carrying the pagers, probably fully dedicated to achieving that aim. I can't see that blowing their hands and bollocks off is going to make them any more committed or dangerous. Just less capable.

Hezbollah are primarily interested in Lebanese politics and the position of Lebanese Shia in Lebanese society not in destroying Israel. Supporting their external backers in Syria and Iran is also important and has also been a nice little earner as a result of their fighting in Syria.

They do need to show their strength at the Southern border as that is the area where many Shia live and have in the past suffered from Israeli interventions and Israel's past support for the brutal warlords running the Christian self-styled South Lebanese Army.

 

[two sheds]

Rather different to launching rockets into civilian areas or dropping bombs.

Suggesting a moral equivalence between the two, but they're hardly comparable. Launching relatively primitive rockets into civilian areas are terrorist actions but haven't killed over 40,000 people.

Again you're following the "Israel has a right to defend itself" when the IDF kill innocent civilians, but Palestinians don't have a right to defend themselves.

 

[Spymaster]

Name names?

Fuck that. Loads of posters on these threads would happily see the destruction of Israel and if you deny that, you're either deluded or mendacious.

Then stop with the 'targeted and precise' bollocks mate. Because it looks like you are defending this.

Bollocks. Where was all this outrage on here on October 7th last year?

 

[PTK]

Fuck that. Loads of posters on these threads would happily see the destruction of Israel and if you deny that, you're either deluded or mendacious.



Bollocks. Where was all this outrage on here on October 7th last year?

To want the abolition of the State of Israel is not to support Hamas.

 

[agricola]

We need to be careful about reading too much into what's being reported just a few hours after the attack. The various propaganda mills will be in full swing. On the other hand they might just have got everyone that they were targeting. Either way, as you say, it was targeted. Rather different to launching rockets into civilian areas or dropping bombs.

True, though the absence (so far) of any supporting military element and the lack of a significant enough incident to require something on this scale as as a response does suggest that this wasn’t deployed when it was intended to.

 

[DownwardDog]

If this had been a movie it would have been dismissed as unbelievable.
I can just imagine the guy who thought of it trying to pitch it to his boss.
'"Let's plant little bombs in a load of pagers and distribute them to Hezbollah"
"Dude what have you been smoking?"

It's the guy in Hezbollah's Purchasing Dept. that got a sweet deal on 3,000 pagers who is really in the shit. His annual review is going to be a rough ride.

 

[planetgeli]

Fuck that. Loads of posters on these threads would happily see the destruction of Israel and if you deny that, you're either deluded or mendacious.



Bollocks. Where was all this outrage on here on October 7th last year?

I never described October 7th as targeted or precise and didn't cheer it on.

And I'm neither mendacious nor deluded.

 

[planetgeli]

Seriously Spy, this attack was innovative, beyond doubt. As was flying planes into the twin towers. Which could possibly be described as targeted and precise. But I never cheered that on either.

This is indiscriminate shit man. That's how you kill little girls.

 

[Spymaster]

I never described October 7th as targeted or precise and didn't cheer it on.

And I'm neither mendacious nor deluded.

Not specifically referring to you.

You presumed to speak for people "here" more generally.

Nobody here supports Hezbollah and/or Hamas.

Had you said that you don't support Hezbollah or Hamas, I'd have no truck with that.

The statement as you made it though, I believe is nonsense.

 

[two sheds]

As I recall there was one poster who briefly came out in support of the October 7 attacks, but that was after the first reports which were of an attack on Israeli military - as soon as the nature of the attack became clear he clarified and retracted.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fuck that. Loads of posters on these threads would happily see the destruction of Israel and if you deny that, you're either deluded or mendacious.

'The destruction of Israel'. Let's unpack that. If you mean that there are posters here who advocate a one-state solution in which Arabs and Jews share the land as equal citizens, you might be correct. That would mean an end to the Israeli state as it is currently constituted. But to go further than that and suggest that such posters in any way support the actions or Islamist aims of Hezbollah or Hamas is to demonstrate that you either have severe comprehension problems or are yourself being mendacious.

 

[Spymaster]

But to go further than that and suggest that such posters in any way support the actions or Islamist aims of Hezbollah or Hamas is to demonstrate that you either have severe comprehension problems or are yourself being mendacious.

Bollocks.

There are posters here who support Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh and your first reaction to 7 October was to sententiously demand that every poster condemn Hamas as despicable terrorists and murderers. If I recall you spent several pages pursuing this line then subsequently went quiet.

You're not the only one who can play that pointless game.

Israel is a terrorist state.

Do you agree with this?

 

[elbows]

I see the BBC live updates page includes:

Ireland's deputy premier says he considers the explosions to be a breach of the Geneva Convention.

"This is a new form of warfare, I think we have to be extremely worried and concerned about that and the international community needs to reflect on the nature of the attack," Micheál Martin told reporters in Dublin.

Also contains Russia having the nerve to go on about international law.

Pager attack in Lebanon: Two children among 12 killed by exploding pagers, as reports say Israel was behind attack

Thousands of pagers exploded across Lebanon yesterday - reports say Israel's spy agency, Mossad, was targeting Hezbollah fighters.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[scalyboy]

You used the word 'precise' a few posts ago.

Setting off detonations next to a stall of oranges or whatever is neither targeted or precise

Israel appears to have dramatically raised the bar of what constitutes an acceptable level of ‘collateral damage’ post-October 7th.

It had been the case that 10-30 civilian casualties were acceptable only when targeting high-ranking members of Hamas / Hezbollah / etc. *

Since then, however, the deaths of 30 civilians (including women and children) are deemed to be acceptable even when a low-level footsoldier is the target (as per the massacre in Gaza).

I can’t recall the article where I read this as my brain is cabbaged, but am pretty sure I read it somewhere here.
Some Israeli IT whistleblowers revealed that a computer program was generating daily targets for the IDF based on mobile phones and GPS (notwithstanding the fact that phones may be sold or given to someone else who is not associated with Hamas)

There was no longer any attempt to target only ‘high-value’ Hamas people, nor to minimise civilian deaths.

The former model was supposedly based on the assassination of bin Laden; his being the leader of an enemy organisation made acceptable the 20-30(?) civilian deaths of people living in his compound.

* This had supposedly been official policy, but of course the reality ‘on the ground’ is different.

 

[elbows]

I had to look elsewhere to get a fuller set of quotes from Micheál Martin, always interesting to see which bits the BBC leaves out. Including:

Mr Martin said: “The nature of the attack illustrates a wanton disregard for the lives of people because these pagers with explosives put into them went off in public areas and supermarkets and around people going out about their daily lives.

“It meant that many innocent civilians – men, women and children – were caught up in this.”

Asked if he considered it to be a breach of Geneva Convention rules on indiscriminate attacks, Mr Martin replied: “In my view, yes, absolutely.

“It cannot be condoned. It also, again, indicates that there are no boundaries on how this could escalate.”

Also from Irish premier Simon Harris:

“Obviously a country’s rights to defend itself, a country’s rights to address terrorism, is a legitimate right, but when explosives are being detonated, civilians being impacted, and take place in locations with many many civilians, it’s extraordinarily concerning.”

He added that he has previously voiced his concern about Israel’s “disproportionate” actions in Gaza.

Pager attack showed ‘wanton disregard’ for civilian life, Martin says

Pagers used by militant group Hezbollah exploded near-simultaneously on Tuesday, killing at least nine people and injuring nearly 3,000.

www.thenational.scot

I note that even when this sort of stance is taken, the use of language is still not the same, most notably when the term terrorism is not applied by default, rather the 'right to address terrorism' is.

 

[Gramsci]

Hardly the first that they have committed and not the most egregious. This attack targeted Hezbollah fighters and organisers fairly directly which is different from indiscriminate bombing a hospital or refugee camp. Hezbollah are no strangers against crimes against humanity either as was seen in the murder of those Druze kids playing football in the occupied Golan Heights.

From a British perspective don't forget the SAS murders of innocent Afghan men when they were trying to boost their kill rate.

PTK post wasn't saying this was unique to Israel. So not sure what your point is.

PTK was saying in their view it was a war crime.

Secondly BBC report says nine people killed including one child and 2800 wounded.

Just wondering what you regard as indiscriminate. As looks to me that a lot of bystanders have been injured. Including one child killed. Unless all of them were Hamas looks to me that this was indiscriminate.

Hezbollah blames Israel after deadly pager explosions in Lebanon

Nine people have been killed and 2,800 wounded by the blasts, the Lebanese health ministry says.

www.google.com

 

[Aladdin]

If Israel has the capacity to do this to individual Hezbolla members...to pinpoint them individually like this... why did it not target Hamas in the same way?
Why did Israel bludgeon thousands of innocent men women and children in Gaza?
These are questions Netanyahu won't answer. And it shows how the Israeli state wants to destroy the Muslim communities in Gaza. The aim is not peace. It's land.