Feminism and the silencing of women

[friendofdorothy]

He's so bloody cheerful about it, too! I suppose that's the advantage of being Eton-educated, you've no suspicion that you might be being a dick.

It works for Bo Jo.

 

[equationgirl]

Thinking about this a bit more, it's not just public-school educated men who act like it's a bit of a jolly jape - although they're probably the worst. But "ordinary" men in the office treat equality issues like a big joke and as though they're being delightfully mischievous for refusing to be "PC".

No, sadly it isn't. I worked with a load of engineers who were not publicly educated and most used to ask for my opinion, then question it, tell me I wasn't a real engineer despite me being more high qualified than them, talk over me in meetings and generally act like they were entitled because they were men and I wasn't.

Some of them were not like that, they were kind and respectful and treated me like an equal. But they were the exception and not in management for the most part.

 

[Edie]

Feminism and the silencing of women:
Judge condemned for letting domestic abuser who bashed wife’s head against floor avoid jail

He admitted punching and kicking his wife, hitting her head against a floor and brandishing a knife at her, and attacking his daughters when they tried to intervene.

but no jail for him.

My ex can throw my son across the room and it’s a ‘non crime’.

This is the silencing of women. Honestly, fuck this shit.

 

[campanula]

Nothing says silence like death

 

[campanula]

Does anyone here use a self-defence spray? I always carry my Eveaid with me...and have used it once too...on some fucker harrassing me in a nearby subway - which I hate to use but the city council have made it almost impossible for pedestrians to avoid by extending railings along the pavement. Unlit, reeking, a fucking nightmare

 

[campanula]

Wondering if, because I am old, I have missed what is currently going on, regarding personal safety. Back in the day, women's self defence classes were very popular indeed. There were always adverts for instructors, classes at the council gym, even some schools had visiting classes for young women/adolescents...although, in my town, we were being terrorised by the Cambridge Rapist so it might have been a specific response to a local threat. Not that I would actually trust myself to be effective in any sort of physical confrontation (cos cowardly and feeble) but doing the course definitely gives you a certain upright confidence (Don't dare fuck with ME)...plus a couple of sneaky tricks such as the instep stomp and effective use of sharp elbows, thumbs to side of mouth and so on. For a long time, I had one of those shrieking whistle things but lost it - not that I think it would have had much effect. The thing is, most of this self-defence shit really tends not to work when the attacks are coming from those we know and trust. I honestly don't fear the random stranger as much as I have been cowed by the slaps and punches of a parent/brother/husband/colleague/ neighbour.
I tend not to get the shouts, jeers and gropings...but I am regularly jostled, shoved or, at best, ignored...now that I have attained the invisibility of the older woman.

 

[friendofdorothy]

talking of invisibility :

Just came across this link Uninvisiblity – August 2019 –

It's annoyingly started by some ad company types but it has some interesting stuff about invisibility of older women. Seems to be mostly talking about invisibility in ads - but older women seem to be invisible/under-represented everywhere in the media. Interesting stat they quote is that women over 50 buy 47% of everything. Not sure where that stat is taken from or which country, but considering most of the older women I know are buying stuff for their husbands, their kids/grandkids and their parents it sounds plausible to me. I suppose too that older women are a growing part of the population and have more spending power for houses and cars etc.

So why am I assailed daily by ads of young sexy women? and older women are usually only featured when they want to sell incontinence products or anti ageing gloop.

 

[friendofdorothy]

The thing is, most of this self-defence shit really tends not to work when the attacks are coming from those we know and trust. I honestly don't fear the random stranger as much as I have been cowed by the slaps and punches of a parent/brother/husband/colleague/ neighbour.

this is how they silence us.

 

[mango5]

Thanks for getting into the detail friendofdorothy I linked to the main site https://www.uninvisibility.com upthread which has more diverse stories, but I couldn't easily see where the stat came from. The closest/most recent things I could find is this piece of marketing blather BOOMERS OVER 50 YEARS OLD BUY 50% OF EVERYTHING and this Women Influence 83% Of All Consumer Spending In U.S. — Inclusionary Leadership Group. which is basically telling American male salesfolk they should be targeting women more. The woman behind Univisibility seems to be a marketing bod (https://www.janee.london/)

Edit to add Do Women Really Control 80% of Household Spending?

The numbers typically originate with companies and writers who specialize in emphasizing the importance of marketing to women -- who do seem to control more than half of household spending, according to some surveys, but not 80%. This isn't academic research, and a half dozen economists contacted said they aren't familiar with any studies that quantify women-controlled spending. "The notion of spending under 'control' of one group just does not make much conceptual sense to me," Harvard University economist Lawrence Katz wrote in an email.

There's also this from the UK but it doesn't really say why youth is prioritised 40-plus women: Putting age before reason – Marketing Week and this which essentially says that US marketeers are focusing on young(er) people because they have longer consumer lifespans Why Are Marketers So Obsessed With Millennials?

 

[campanula]

I actually have no idea what to think of that, mango5. The whole site just seemed nauseatingly 'can-do', American and focused on...what? Marketing? Why are these women 'amazing'?
Obviously, feeling poor, unincluded and hearing that we are somehow to be noticed because we 'buy stuff'. I really don't know... but have to say, Heidi whatsherface - the 54 year old horserider and 'party girl can go fuck herself. If our buying power is the key to our visbility, then blow me, I am happy to remain in the twilight hinterlands.

have I got this all wrong.

 

[mango5]

Marketeers spout crap is my take on it. And Jane thingy has some good ideas which suffer from the shallow shine of a marketing approach.
The trend Dorothy identified about targeted ads being about anti-aging gloop will, I think, extend to other things too as the other trend for 'real bodies' grows. But the cult of youth is long-established and unlikely to disappear imo. And the crap about women controlling household expenditure which keeps us domesticated has been somewhat addressed by the recent regulation against gender stereotypes in advertising.
A harsh interpretation would say the Uninvisiblityssite perpetuates silencing through subtle stereotyping that presents the idea that well-earned wrinkles are OK as somehow radical.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The personal is political.

Thank you, Marshall McLuhan!

 

[friendofdorothy]

I actually have no idea what to think of that, mango5. The whole site just seemed nauseatingly 'can-do', American and focused on...what? Marketing? Why are these women 'amazing'?
Obviously, feeling poor, unincluded and hearing that we are somehow to be noticed because we 'buy stuff'. I really don't know... but have to say, Heidi whatsherface - the 54 year old horserider and 'party girl can go fuck herself. If our buying power is the key to our visbility, then blow me, I am happy to remain in the twilight hinterlands.

have I got this all wrong.

No I agree. I don't find women who have well paid jobs in advertising amazing either.
I was quite happy being no ones 'target market'. Obviously capitalism requires people to have a 'I buy therefore I am' attitude. Yet despite the buying power of older women we are still largely invisible in ads.

I'm used to being invisible - when I was younger I had never seen much imagery of lgbt+ people and none of lesbians. I'm not sure how I feel about the current inclusiveness of queerness in marketing - it feels weird.

There are loads of older women who are amazing and they rarely make the news, ads or media . We rarely see any pictures of older female scientists/ social workers/ doctors/nurses/ mothers/ volutary workers/ etc etc. Previous female pms and the queen are rare exceptions. I worry what this says to young girls.

 

[JudithB]

I have just binge watched Big Little Lies, the drama Reese Witherspoon put together I think. It's something to do with her production company, somehow. I watched it because I saw her speech about how she was being disappeared now she was no longer "marketable". The show has it's flaws, they're all white, rich, beautiful etc. But they are all more than the side kick, the token bird, the wise woman (eek, the wise woman was a black woman so even Reese hasn't gotten over the "magic black person" trope).

You cannot be what you cannot see.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I worry what this says to young girls.

...it says don't get old/er ...It says conform to what society tells you makes you valuable, consume, get fake hair, nails, tan, eyelashes etc...just being female is never enough.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Thanks for getting into the detail friendofdorothy I linked to the main site https://www.uninvisibility.com upthread which has more diverse stories, but I couldn't easily see where the stat came from. The closest/most recent things I could find is this piece of marketing blather BOOMERS OVER 50 YEARS OLD BUY 50% OF EVERYTHING and this Women Influence 83% Of All Consumer Spending In U.S. — Inclusionary Leadership Group. which is basically telling American male salesfolk they should be targeting women more. The woman behind Univisibility seems to be a marketing bod (https://www.janee.london/)

Edit to add Do Women Really Control 80% of Household Spending?

There's also this from the UK but it doesn't really say why youth is prioritised 40-plus women: Putting age before reason – Marketing Week and this which essentially says that US marketeers are focusing on young(er) people because they have longer consumer lifespans Why Are Marketers So Obsessed With Millennials?

Thanks for all that. The bit about the US focusing on young(er) people because they have longer consumer lifespans doesn't ring true.

I think it's very much about the cult of youth - and that seems to apply more to women than to men. Images of older men can used to show 'authority' , men are still the image of the leader, the boss, the brains, the adventurer.

I think younger peoples yearning for 'things' and for branded stuff is easier to tap into - older women are probably more savvy customers and hard to sell the latest craze to.

Marketeers spout crap is my take on it. And Jane thingy has some good ideas which suffer from the shallow shine of a marketing approach.
The trend Dorothy identified about targeted ads being about anti-aging gloop will, I think, extend to other things too as the other trend for 'real bodies' grows. But the cult of youth is long-established and unlikely to disappear imo. And the crap about women controlling household expenditure which keeps us domesticated has been somewhat addressed by the recent regulation against gender stereotypes in advertising.
A harsh interpretation would say the Uninvisiblityssite perpetuates silencing through subtle stereotyping that presents the idea that well-earned wrinkles are OK as somehow radical.

I'll be interested to see what difference recent regulation against gender stereotypes in advertising will have.

 

[JudithB]

I'll be interested to see what difference recent regulation against gender stereotypes in advertising will have.

What regulations are these?

 

[friendofdorothy]

What regulations are these?

I vaguely recall hearing about them - mango5?

 

[JudithB]

I vaguely recall hearing about them - mango5?

I'm outta here for tonight - will look tomorrow x

 

[Cloo]

A friend of mine who works for Gransnet ran an interesting survey about how older women feel that women of their age are portrayed in books:Half of women over 40 say older women in fiction are clichés, survey finds | The Bookseller

NB, regulations about stereotypes: Ban on harmful gender stereotypes in ads comes into force Specifically it says 'harmful' gender stereotypes, which I imagine many people will disagree on what that means.

 

[campanula]

A harsh interpretation would say the Uninvisiblityssite perpetuates silencing through subtle stereotyping that presents the idea that well-earned wrinkles are OK as somehow radical.

Yep, seems to skate awfully close to some sort of valorisation of 'womanliness' as some sort of state of being which was worthy of celebration (a bit like the whole 'goddess' thing) which makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. I don't really care about being invisible either, to be honest (but that's because I am a bit anti-social and hopelessly shy).

NB, regulations about stereotypes: Ban on harmful gender stereotypes in ads comes into force Specifically it says 'harmful' gender stereotypes, which I imagine many people will disagree on what that means.

Gender stereotypes are generally a bit shit though, so 'harmful' sounds a bit WTF.

 

[mango5]

Thanks Cloo. The media reporting I heard a while back gave examples of adverts portraying men in childcare roles as good and women in same roles as against the new regulation.

ETA friendofdorothy the bit about longer consumer lifespans means from now, not over your/my lifespan. We were once the targets of the cult of youth in advertising, we've had our turn.

 

[mango5]

Is it odd that this silencing thread has more contributions from women in the last couple of pages than the celebration thread?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is it odd that this silencing thread has more contributions from women in the last couple of pages than the celebration thread?

The celebration thread has been squatted by blokes who don't seem to have anything about feminism to celebrate.

 

[mango5]

Sssh!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Sssh!

 

[scifisam]

Most of the stuff I've read about advertisers targeting younger demographics (which they've done for decades) is more about disposable income.

They are also more likely to want to use a different brand to their parents, whereas the older generations already have some brand loyalty due to them breaking away from their parents' brands. They are, basically, a new market, and that's what companies always want to try to tap into. I read something once many years ago that said you get a 16-year-old into Nikes, you have him for life.

 

[andysays]

There's currently a story on the BBC website about a couple of adverts which have fallen foul of the new rules (on phone ATM so can't link )

 

[bluescreen]

There's currently a story on the BBC website about a couple of adverts which have fallen foul of the new rules (on phone ATM so can't link )

This one?
Philadelphia and VW ads banned over gender rules

 

[Sue]

John Humphries interviewed a woman from the ASA about this earlier on the Today programme. Couldn't tell if he was being deliberately thick or what but he seemed to be struggling to understand her points.