Why are more young men than older seeing feminism as a bad thing?

[littlebabyjesus]

I was talking about sexualities, not kinks.

But I suspect some people are referring to kinks as sexualities.

 

[8ball]

But I suspect some people are referring to kinks as sexualities.

If Dwyer is doing this, I can’t see that it makes his central argument make any more sense.

 

[Ax^]

I guess there is some confusion in terms here. Plenty of people have kinks of various kinds while also falling into the category straight, gay, lesbian or bi. They're not mutually exclusive.

if you can imagine it , it more than likely happening as the old saying goes

 

[8ball]

if you can imagine it , it more than likely happening as the old saying goes

Same is true if you can’t imagine it imo.

 

[Ax^]

true like people using the term exfoliated in this context

 

[Dystopiary]

If anything, loads of younger women in Britain have a lot less choice in their lives than 20-40 years ago.

Housing options are seriously limited for a start, further education's not necessarily an option for thousands, and there's a huge mental health crisis. With the NHS going down the shitter.

It's tragically laughable, the idea that the norm is a young woman who can just pick and choose where she lives, go to uni, have the career she wants etc.

There must be 20-somethings of all genders seeing some over-indulged twat on youtube spouting this shit and wondering what world these people live in.

 

[8ball]

true like people using the term exfoliated in this context

Indeed, I can’t imagine what kind of fantasy is indicated there.

 

[BigMoaner]

There must be 20-somethings of all genders seeing some over-indulged twat on youtube spouting this shit and wondering what world these people live in.

Or what’s wrong with them. A lot of these influencers, manosphere or not, are raking it in. They give the impression that culture war vomit is somehow influential to all our lives which it is but not as much as stable housing, community, not relying on food banks, zero hour contracts, etc. most of these influencers’ advice outside of all the toxitiy is go to the gym or yoga.

 

[Dystopiary]

Or what’s wrong with them. A lot of these influencers, manosphere or not, are raking it in. They give the impression that culture war vomit is somehow influential to all our lives which it is but not as much as stable housing, community, not relying on food banks, zero hour contracts, etc. most of these influencers’ advice outside of all the toxitiy is go to the gym or yoga.

Exactly!

 

[BigMoaner]

i keep saying it but recommend everyone to Byung Chul Han. He's gaining real relevance in left wing/critical theory circles. A total hermit, but has somehow in my view got an incredible oversight of what is going on. Influences as wide ranging as Heidegger to Zen Buddhism. He's the heavy weight we needed in my view, post tech revolution. WAs like a veil being lifted from my eyes (why do I feel so tired and burnt out all the time?), and things like the manosphere etc suddenly make a lot more sense because he kind of looks a lot at modern compulsions, modern desires, modern fears, and then looks at the relationship between such compulsions/desires etc and neoliberal capitalism. Coming from a knowledge of many eastern traditions, and being an almost total recluse, he has the way of a kind of modern mystic and it's philosophy in my view that is not just "oh that's nice and interesting" but actually transformative. Praxis over theory and all that. He asks such questions as "what happens to the human subject when it refuses to improve".

anyway, he's on the tip of my tongue a lot these days. a brilliant thinker and writer.

 

[BigMoaner]

 

[BigMoaner]

Hit the gym!, bro.

 

[xenon]

This is something I question with a lot of social media-related stuff - it makes visible and amplifies things that already existed and can create the conditions for moral panics. I saw plenty of horrible toxic male behaviour when I was a teenager/early 20s. Calling women 'it' when 'on the pull', and the like. I'm not convinced things are worse now.

I’ll try writing a more coherent post tomorrow I hate attempting posting serious stuff, on my phone. But yes agree it wasn’t some fair nicer world 20 or years ago. Plenty of horrible phrases like I would smash that et cetera. These weren’t the type of men I hung around with because I was a weirdo awkward art student. And quite obviously many women have relayed their experiences on here. Going back decades. But precarious, constant connectivity, the alienation is a different dynamic now.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It seems to be worse/more explicit in secondary schools now too. But generally yes, I’d say it’s same old shit, different packaging.

 

[A380]

his little alan patridge …

Is that a euphemism?

 

[BigMoaner]

The pie-charting of sexuality. They use graphs, formulars, "evolutionary psychology". If I can just get the god damn forumula right. And for many it's "the sex is STILL not popping out!!! God damn it". Not sure about anyone else but has anyone every tried to work out there own sexuality let alone anyone elses? I hit the void after a while of digging. Thank god. Non reducible, mysterious, beautiful. The problem they have is they have a kind of violent overreach into what is "female sexuality", they have colonised it (or think they ahve) with facts, "logic", and any other data they can marshall from grifters, lunatics, and fellow lonely folk. So you can imagine them actually interacting with a woman in a bar with a literal Phd crammed in their heads about what this woman wants. All risks and threats and vulnerability erased, they become in the truest sense manipulative. But some would argue all those "negativities" such as risk and vulnerability are what make love (and sex) work in the first place. I like what Alan Watts says about love - how we say "falling in love" rather than rising. A giving up. "I give myself to you, do anythign you want with me."

bit cheesy but i like it:, only 3 minutes (clip context: alan watts was a english philosopher who popularised a lot of eastern philosophy in teh sixties.)

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Maybe it seems worse now not just because of people like Tate but because women are reporting harassment and sexism more. And maybe Tate is a reaction to things like the Me Too movement, and is just the most recent form of feminist backlash.

 

[hitmouse]

Yeah, the basic maths is the same. There is still roughly one man to every woman and homosexuality rates in each sex are similar.

Even after a sharp rise in self-identification as LGB, still here in the UK a whopping 94% of people identify as straight to population survey gatherers. Even among under-25s, it's 92%. And women are twice as likely to say they're bi than men, which in theory would put straight men at a slight advantage if anything.

Edited. Sorry, this is the latest release. Basically the same.

Sexual orientation, UK - Office for National Statistics

To be strictly fair to dwyer's fucking stupid argument, I suppose it's not just about sexual orientation, but also gender identity, because, for instance, if all the women who would previously have become obedient housewives were now becoming trans men, that would also be a problem for marriage-minded cishet blokes. But, going back to the ONS data again:

Gender identity, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

The gender identity of usual residents aged 16 years and over in England and Wales, Census 2021 data.

www.ons.gov.uk

• The census question on gender identity was a voluntary question asked of those aged 16 years and over. The question asked “Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?”.
• Overall, 45.7 million (94.0% of the population aged 16 years and over) answered the question.
• In total, 45.4 million (93.5%) answered “Yes” and 262,000 (0.5%) answered “No”.
• The remaining 2.9 million (6.0%) did not answer the question."

So I don't think that bit of the exfoliation is the massive crisis that phil thinks it is either.

 

[Orang Utan]

I was reading recently of the virulent and overtly misogynistic backlash against Shere Hite in the 70s and 80s for having the temerity to suggest that most women do not orgasm from penetration alone. You’d think we’ve come a long way from men feeling so threatened by female sexuality but the likes of Ben Shapiro and Matt Ellis seem to be doing their best to row back any progress made

 

[Artaxerxes]

Maybe it seems worse now not just because of people like Tate but because women are reporting harassment and sexism more. And maybe Tate is a reaction to things like the Me Too movement, and is just the most recent form of feminist backlash.

Tate seems like a symptom of peak capitalism, that relentless urge to spend and make it and glory in wealth for displays sake.


Theres always been a need for some to show off but Tate sells it as a lifestyle devoid of any further substance.

 

[Dystopiary]

I was reading recently of the virulent and overtly misogynistic backlash against Shere Hite in the 70s and 80s for having the temerity to suggest that most women do not orgasm from penetration alone. You’d think we’ve come a long way from men feeling so threatened by female sexuality but the likes of Ben Shapiro and Matt Ellis seem to be doing their best to row back any progress made

Shere Hite should be part of sex ed. How many people still don't even know this and think there's something "wrong" with them? (I legit did for ages.)

It'd cut the teenage pregnancy rate too imo.

 

[muscovyduck]

Shere Hite should be part of sex ed. How many people still don't even know this and think there's something "wrong" with them? (I legit did for ages.)

It'd cut the teenage pregnancy rate too imo.

The absolute horror I felt in my last relationship when the bloke brought lube along to "fix" the problem thank GOD I know better by now! And yes, this was indicative of deeper problems with him and he kept snapping back to his rigid set view every time I thought we'd made progress, which I've found typical of that type of man.

Years ago I'd even gotten a diagnosis from the sex clinic because my body was behaving in a very normal way but this wasn't convenient for how men expect it to behave for them. The word "foreplay" has a lot to answer for in my opinion.

 

[A380]

The absolute horror I felt in my last relationship when the bloke brought lube along to "fix" the problem thank GOD I know better by now! And yes, this was indicative of deeper problems with him and he kept snapping back to his rigid set view every time I thought we'd made progress, which I've found typical of that type of man.

Years ago I'd even gotten a diagnosis from the sex clinic because my body was behaving in a very normal way but this wasn't convenient for how men expect it to behave for them. The word "foreplay" has a lot to answer for in my opinion.

There will be a handful of male posters along shortly ( you can probably guess half of them) who will be happy to outline why you are wrong and why what every woman needs to orgasm is 90 seconds of said poster banging away …

 

[Cloo]

I think some of the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of what women actually want vs. what some of these men think women want.

They think they have to be super muscular, aggressive/assertive and spend lots of money showing off. Then they get frustrated and angry either because it's unachievable or because it doesn't work.

I think nine times out of ten women would prefer someone who is kind, looks after their loved ones and has a good sense of humour. Self confidence is a good thing but not overconfidence or arrogance.

The algorithm pushes people to this unrealistic influencer stuff because the best way to keep eyeballs on the screen is generating feelings of envy and insecurity.

People form much better quality relationships offline than online I think.

I think these people seem to put on blinkers and not notice that the world is full or fairly ordinary-looking people with ordinary bodies and paypackets having relationships with each other.

Yes, there are fantasies of muscly men and women with porn-star bodies but those are generally fantasies, I don't think many people of either sex 'expect' it or have it in their head as a minimum expectation.

I watched an interesting course for parents about talking to your kids about porn that noted what I can see being a real problem of early porn exposure - that traditionally, boys were more likely to get to know girls in general as people in between the 'girls are yucky' and being ready to date, and now they are seeing porn very young and learning to see girls as bangable body parts before they get a chance to know them as people.

 

[Cloo]

Shere Hite should be part of sex ed. How many people still don't even know this and think there's something "wrong" with them? (I legit did for ages.)

Yup, it was quite some time after I popped my cherry that I found out the female orgasm generally comes via the clitoris, not PIV sex.

I am a huge believer in sex-positive education, especially for girls/assigned female at birth people, that they should be be told that sex ought to be a positive, satisfying and safe experience - 'common sense' types would have an anuerysm going 'But... but then girls would want to have sex!' because the baseline that women have been told for centuries in Western culture is basically 'You won't like sex, lie back and take it you'll need to do it to maintain a relationship' and hopefully that will put them off going for it outside marriage. Which has been effective. But has also led to lots of horrible, dangerous and in some cases deadly sexual encounters.

I'll never forget reading an article about men and women being surveyed about their worst sexual experiences - men's were all 'couldn't get it up', 'she just lay there like a dead fish'. Women's were men choking them and other assaults, humiliation, pain, rape. But I think if young people were taught they deserve and should have good sex, and that porn does not portray 'good sex' then it might encourage critical thinking about 'Hmmm, should I sleep with this spotty oik who's just thrust his hands down my blouse without asking but at least I lose my virginity, or should I wait to meet a guy who seems emotionally safe and like he will care about giving me a good time'. I think sex positive education would lead to less but better sex for women because they would feel empowered to demand more, and men would feel empowered to offer better

 

[Agent Sparrow]

There will be a handful of male posters along shortly ( you can probably guess half of them) who will be happy to outline why you are wrong and why what every woman needs to orgasm is 90 seconds of said poster banging away …

Oh please not…

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I'll never forget reading an article about men and women being surveyed about their worst sexual experiences - men's were all 'couldn't get it up', 'she just lay there like a dead fish'.

Any man who claims a “dead fish” experience should probably have a long, hard look at whether there really was enthusiastic consent

 

[Dystopiary]

The absolute horror I felt in my last relationship when the bloke brought lube along to "fix" the problem thank GOD I know better by now! And yes, this was indicative of deeper problems with him and he kept snapping back to his rigid set view every time I thought we'd made progress, which I've found typical of that type of man.

Years ago I'd even gotten a diagnosis from the sex clinic because my body was behaving in a very normal way but this wasn't convenient for how men expect it to behave for them. The word "foreplay" has a lot to answer for in my opinion.

Oh I'm so glad you're out of that. You absolutely don't need that BS.

That word - yes! It needs to go in the bin.

 

[hitmouse]

There's a bit from the very brilliant Katherine Angel book Unmastered where she describes going to a pornography seminar with a leading porn researcher:
"He seems a bit unsettled. A little bit flummoxed. Well, he says, new and emerging forms of pornography - amateur pornography, pornography that cuts out the middle man, where people turn webcams on themselves and masturbate and others tune in and watch - are increasing the range of pleasures that people encounter.

Clitoral stimulation as an innovative breakout form! Faint praise, I think to myself, faint fucking praise."

 

[Dystopiary]

Also, Freud -> bin