klang
klang
My life was difficult before I had him. Still is, just differently so.
Why people don't want kids anymore (apparently)
- Thread starter Cloo
- Start date
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
Kids are great and give life meaning, of course. But the allusion that's played out sometimes is that a life without them is therefore meaningless which is horseshit. I wouldn't even say they give my life meaning, it's just i love them very deeply. It's not like I have unlocked some hidden purpose. Of course you suddenly get invested in their future somewhat (but too much of that, too much attachment is not good, either) but it's not like they unlock some kind of wonderful exestential meaning. just walk around the park and see how many miserable parents there are - and they often stay that way, kids or no kids.
ska invita
back on the other side
Yeah but that's more fun than nagging rugrats to tidy up after themselves
Parenting children is in our DNA, and either if I was swimming in money or living in a commune where there was a village in place to help, I'd be well up for it. Doesn't suit my lifestyle one bit right now though
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
Yeah but that's more fun than nagging rugrats to tidy up after themselves
Parenting children is in our DNA, and either if I was swimming in money or living in a commune where there was a village in place to help, I'd be well up for it. Doesn't suit my lifestyle one bit right now though
I have definitely learned to enjoy both halves of my week - it's just the one with the kids is calmer. I sometimes realise on the off half that I am literally regressed and I go with it, great fun
teuchter
je suis teuchter
People who have had kids can never know what their life would have been like if they hadn't. And those who haven't, can never know what would theirs would have been like, if they had.
There are a lot of parents who feel their careers have stalled as a result... and yet there seem to be loads of childless people who are disappointed that their career didn't go where they had hoped it would. They don't have a convenient explanation for why, though.
And there are childless people who think having kids would have provided them with a stability and purpose that they lack. Yet there seem to be plenty of parents who don't feel they have those things.
I have no real evidence to support this reckon, but I reckon that many people over-estimate how much impact having or not having children has had on how satisfied they are with their lives.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I'm glad my parent's decided to have children. A form of life has had the chance to exist, and feel and think, and reflect on its own existence. And as an atheist (but not anti-theist) I know I shouldn't fear death because there's nothing to fear when there's nothing at all. With that said, I do want to feel and think for a little while longer.
Unfortunately we've built a form of social organisation that makes so many so utterly unfulfilled and miserable, the means to life deliberately withheld behind various kinds of economic compulsion. It doesn't have to be this way. That's for the younger generations to sort out, though. We just need to try and make it less of a mess for them to clean up.
Unfortunately we've built a form of social organisation that makes so many so utterly unfulfilled and miserable, the means to life deliberately withheld behind various kinds of economic compulsion. It doesn't have to be this way. That's for the younger generations to sort out, though. We just need to try and make it less of a mess for them to clean up.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
"compulsion" is a really interesting word these days. compelled to do so much. compulsion kind of negates a form of chosing will to an extent. it's economic too but it's also moved to the pyschic: must be happy, must be confident, must be loving, must be friendly, must be fit, must be sane, on and on. modern.
ska invita
back on the other side
It does give some people meaning to their life where they had none before.... It's a massive responsibility too of course, so that degree of meaning is unavoidable.
I'm more nterested in the bigger picture of humanity than that of my particular gene pool, and that includes my family. I am though a cultural Marxist rootless cosmopolitan so that's my bias
Mrs Miggins
Eternal
I only said “disparaging comments” once as an example.
I never felt any real societal pressure to have children and I don’t see if being placed on the young people I’m in contact with now.
I definitely do not think anyone is considered “weird” any more for just not wanting children.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
That's just the individualised non-solutions to people's alienation and the wider social forces beyond their control. Therapy, which was absolutely necessary for me as a young adult to develop non-destructive ways of dealing with my past experiences of childhood abuse, but as a way to deal with the way capitalism strips your ability to healthily fulfill yourself and be connected to others? Nah. You need to overhaul all of society for that.
That you have to 'earn' a living in that context implies that the default of being is that you don't deserve to live and have to prove otherwise. Shelter, food, water, education and healthcare for all, and for free, as a baseline. Not bullshit 'wellness' and self-actualisation only a few can afford.
No, but at the same time I think there are (perhaps half conscious) cultural and internalised ideas about masculinity and femininity and virility and fertility.
I think it's easy to underestimate how much things have changed in the last 10/20 years in terms of people sharing their emotions and feelings. People speak about mental health in a way they never would have done 10 years ago, and along with that comes more open conversations generally about life and the decisions we make.
I can remember someone at work telling me - around 10ish years ago - that he was a bit on the fence about kids (having had kids). Saying it was tough and involved lots of personal sacrifices. He was saying it with a smile but I remember it being almost shocking because most people wouldn't have admitted to anything like that before then.
So it's much more common to be reflective and honest about the ups and downs, rather than sugar-coating it, which no doubt has an effect. And similarly society is definitely much more accepting of people choosing not to have kids or not to be in a relationship, or get married, in a way that was far less common 10/20 years ago.
I told a mate recently that my experience of having kids was like choosing to live a life with higher highs and lower lows. Opting out would seem easier - a simple life, do what I want when I want, no dependents - but I have already had moments of pure love and happiness with my daughter that I would never have had any other way.
I can remember someone at work telling me - around 10ish years ago - that he was a bit on the fence about kids (having had kids). Saying it was tough and involved lots of personal sacrifices. He was saying it with a smile but I remember it being almost shocking because most people wouldn't have admitted to anything like that before then.
So it's much more common to be reflective and honest about the ups and downs, rather than sugar-coating it, which no doubt has an effect. And similarly society is definitely much more accepting of people choosing not to have kids or not to be in a relationship, or get married, in a way that was far less common 10/20 years ago.
I told a mate recently that my experience of having kids was like choosing to live a life with higher highs and lower lows. Opting out would seem easier - a simple life, do what I want when I want, no dependents - but I have already had moments of pure love and happiness with my daughter that I would never have had any other way.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I've been not having kids since before it was a thing. 61, zero kids, and counting... 
BassJunkie
Clams on the half shell, and roller skates.
A couple of years ago when putting stuff into the boot of my car at the end of a festival (Camp Bestival For Fuck's Sake!) my then 4 year old boy says to me "Dad, I've just drawn a picture on your car with this rock, do you want to see?". He's now 7 and understands that one doesn't Draw On Fucking Cars with Rocks!
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Although, you can't actually know whether that's true or not.
I know "my experience". I have literally lived it. And as a geriatric parent, I have plenty of before for comparison.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
You don't have "before" at the same stage of life, for comparison though.
There is a difference when your life is tied to the joys and sorrows of another in this way.
And yes I think I can tell the difference having been an adult (kind of) for a long time before I had children.
Never wanted children and never will. I'm over the hill and no man is going to want to breed with me anyway, but I have no maternal instincts. Luckily my mum has accepted I'm not going to give her grandkids, but her colleagues at M&S used to ask her if she was bothered about me not giving her grandkids. Oddly, they never asked that about my brother, who's also childfree. My colleagues in my last job also thought I was weird for not being married or having kids at my age.
I hate the idea that a family without kids isn't a real family, or that childfree people don't know what love is.
I hate the idea that a family without kids isn't a real family, or that childfree people don't know what love is.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I'm not trying to say that there's no difference between being a parent and not. Of course there is, a massive one. The question is whether it ultimately makes people happier or more satisfied and how anyone can know if it would / would have.
Those with kids of course have their lives tied to the ups and downs of their children and a large quantity of their time and energy becomes devoted to this. But for those who don't have children, the equivalent time & energy doesn't just go into a vacuum instead. It goes into other things, other human relationships (that might include other people's kids), projects, and causes and these may prove more or less fulfilling than kids would have been - no-one can ever know for sure.
Lurking behind the question, I think for many, is the suspicion that kids is the "natural" thing, the "natural" way to be fulfilled but this might rest on a number of inaccurate assumptions. For example, being a parent now is almost certainly a very different thing, with very different expectations, from being a parent 500 or 4000 years ago.
My eldest's guitar teacher has 7 daughters (one set of twins) and he's only in his 40s
, I was fascinated by the logistics of it, for example they only have one car so if they want to go into the city en masse it's done in shifts. I asked my own daughters where the family lived, a barn apparently. Hopefully converted. Knowing how much work two girls are/were, I just couldn't get my head around the idea of 7, madness. But I bet it's also a bit of a blast.
klang
klang
If I'd've known how much fun is to be had I would've'd started a lot earlier
maomao
普費斯
Don't really agree with this. I see some really shit parenting.
Thora
Differently Ethical
I reckon once you get to 4 it doesn't make much difference how many more you have.My eldest's guitar teacher has 7 daughters (one set of twins) and he's only in his 40s
If I had the money I'd have had loads but with both of us working we don't have the time, space or money for more than 3.
Mrs Miggins
Eternal
I think there are yes but my point is that these ideas are softening and changing and people’s right to choose how they want to live in many different ways is becoming much more widely accepted. Someone earlier up thread said people are learning to mind their own business and not assume other people want the life that they want.
I don’t think that it’s true any more that as a woman, you are expected to have children and if you don’t you are a freak of nature.
No, I don't think that either. I was adding to what you said rather than strongly disagreeing.
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