Feminism and the silencing of women

[Poot]

I have a friend in a not dissimilar position at the moment but she’s fucked off with years of turning the other cheek and actually is going to make a complaint

More power to her elbow. It's fucking painful sometimes. They still use terms like 'the fairer sex' and insist that a certain job 'needs a woman's touch'. And they slag off any women that are senior to them constantly (there aren't many of course). In the employee survey two of us said that the company was sexist. We were told it wasn't. With figures. And statistics. And we were asked to explain ourselves despite being told that the survey was anonymous. So I'm just not brave enough.

 

[kabbes]

More power to her elbow. It's fucking painful sometimes. They still use terms like 'the fairer sex' and insist that a certain job 'needs a woman's touch'. And they slag off any women that are senior to them constantly (there aren't many of course). In the employee survey two of us said that the company was sexist. We were told it wasn't. With figures. And statistics. And we were asked to explain ourselves despite being told that the survey was anonymous. So I'm just not brave enough.

Yeah, can’t blame you at all. It’s fucking insidious and grinding and they make it so hard to take a stand

 

[SheilaNaGig]

One of my colleagues thoughtfully sent this poem to my team today.

Incidentally, it's not by Pam Ayres, according to Pam Ayres.

Sat nav. A new poem by Pam Ayres

I have a little Satnav, it sits there in my car.
A Satnav is a driver's friend it tells you where you are.
I have a little Satnav, i've had it all my life.
It's better than the normal ones, my Satnav is my wife.
It gives me full instructions, especially how to drive
"It's sixty miles an hour", it says, "You're doing sixty five".
It tells me when to stop and start, and when to use the brake
And tells me that it's never ever, safe to overtake.
It tells me when a light is red, and when it goes to green
It seems to know instinctively, just when to intervene.
It lists the vehicles just in front, and all those to the rear.
And taking this into account, it specifies my gear.
I'm sure no other driver, has so helpful a device.
For when we leave and lock the car, it still gives its advice.
It fills me up with counselling, each journey's pretty fraught.
So why don't I exchange it, and get a quieter sort?
Ah well, you see, it cleans the house, makes sure I'm properly fed.
It washes all my shirts and things, and keeps me warm in bed!
Despite all these advantages, and my tendency to scoff,
I only wish that now and then, I could turn the !!!!!! off.

That's bloody horrible.

I wonder of there are any men reading this thread who can't see how nasty that is.

 

[Sue]

Years ago, I worked in quite a large technical company with very few women. There was one very slightly seniorish woman. The general consensus was that she'd obviously slept her way to the top (the top in this case being still quite a junior role).

I suggested maybe it was because she was very smart and worked hard. That went down like a lead balloon.

ETA And someone asked me if I was 'one of those feminists'.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Oh, so depressingly familiar. A bloke at work the other day was complaining about women who bring sexual harassment cases. "We're not allowed to have fun any more" he whined.

 

[Poot]

You know how you can make a statistic say anything you want? Our employee survey results boasted that '90% of you have never suffered any sexism at work!' Which made me 'ha!' because our company is only about 25-30% female. Not to say that the men didn't complain about sexism, but I'd be very surprised if they did.

However, when my manager's manager demanded an explanation about our negative remarks, what he quoted at us was a load of bollocks about the gender pay gap and then continually talked over us for half an hour. So he'll never know. I nearly walked out that day.

 

[Sue]

Hysterical and exaggerating things I'll be bound Poot.

 

[Poot]

Hysterical and exaggerating things I'll be bound Poot.

Ah, you know my sex so well.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

You probably all have better things to do than watch 'First Dates' on channel 4 but there was a youngish man and woman having a first date and she talked about feminism and he really undermined her views - you could just see what had been a lovely date crumble in her eyes. He was bantering and trying to charm his way out of it - so disappointing to hear a young man be so happily dismissive
he said 'it was a bit too intense for me talking about feminism'
they're not having a second date

 

[Pickman's model]

I heard a professor who is an expert in violence against women in conflict the other day on Desert Island Discs saying that more omen were killed by DV in N Ireland during the Troubles than all the people killed by civil unrest.

i thought this was such a surprising claim that i checked the crime statistics from the period, which suggest this isn't the case

Spoiler

from the psni website https://www.psni.police.uk/globalas...me_in_northern_ireland_1998-99_to_2014-15.pdf table 2.3

there'd need to be something in the region of 6,400 instances of murder and manslaughter (there being ~3,200 troubles-related deaths in the six counties) but the number of deaths recorded by the police in the period 1969 through 2014 was 3,980

incidentally, the terms used in the table, manslaughter and homicide, don't seem quite appropriate in the context of the victims of domestic violence.

 

[Santino]

i thought this was such a surprising claim that i checked the crime statistics from the period, which suggest this isn't the case

Spoiler

View attachment 174652
from the psni website https://www.psni.police.uk/globalas...me_in_northern_ireland_1998-99_to_2014-15.pdf table 2.3

there'd need to be something in the region of 6,400 instances of murder and manslaughter (there being ~3,200 troubles-related deaths in the six counties) but the number of deaths recorded by the police in the period 1969 through 2014 was 3,980

incidentally, the terms used in the table, manslaughter and homicide, don't seem quite appropriate in the context of the victims of domestic violence.

But 3,980 is more than 3,200.

 

[Pickman's model]

But 3,980 is more than 3,200.

your powers of observation are keen indeed. but of those 3,980, about 3,200 are troubles-related deaths. which is why i said the number of killings would need to be about 6,400 or more for the claim to be true.

 

[Santino]

your powers of observation are keen indeed. but of those 3,980, about 3,200 are troubles-related deaths. which is why i said the number of killings would need to be about 6,400 or more for the claim to be true.

Ah, I thought the 3980 were all non-troubles related.

 

[polly]

You probably all have better things to do than watch 'First Dates' on channel 4 but there was a youngish man and woman having a first date and she talked about feminism and he really undermined her views - you could just see what had been a lovely date crumble in her eyes. He was bantering and trying to charm his way out of it - so disappointing to hear a young man be so happily dismissive
he said 'it was a bit too intense for me talking about feminism'
they're not having a second date

Or maybe it's positive, that he has lost out on something that could have been lovely and might think about it later... /optimist

(I love First Dates )

 

[Manter]

i thought this was such a surprising claim that i checked the crime statistics from the period, which suggest this isn't the case

Spoiler

View attachment 174652
from the psni website https://www.psni.police.uk/globalas...me_in_northern_ireland_1998-99_to_2014-15.pdf table 2.3

there'd need to be something in the region of 6,400 instances of murder and manslaughter (there being ~3,200 troubles-related deaths in the six counties) but the number of deaths recorded by the police in the period 1969 through 2014 was 3,980

incidentally, the terms used in the table, manslaughter and homicide, don't seem quite appropriate in the context of the victims of domestic violence.

I find it hard to believe that there were only 700 deaths from DV in over 40 years.... that suggests a lower incidence of DV in NI than anywhere else, during a time of conflict. As a comparator- there were 400 deaths in England and Wales in just 3 years.

 

[Pickman's model]

I find it hard to believe that there were only 700 deaths from DV in over 40 years.... that suggests a lower incidence of DV in NI than anywhere else, during a time of conflict. As a comparator- there were 400 deaths in England and Wales in just 3 years.

i don't suppose the ~780 deaths are all from dv

taking the relative populations in 2011 (Demography of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia) the populations of england and wales were 31.35 times greater than that of northern ireland, so assuming a similar level of domestic violence in the six counties you'd get for the three years you suggest 13 deaths (rounded up from 12.8). again assuming a constant rate you'd be looking at for 1969 to 2014 (45/3) x 13, which would give a ballpark figure of 195 deaths.

 

[Manter]

i don't suppose the ~780 deaths are all from dv

taking the relative populations in 2011 (Demography of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia) the populations of england and wales were 31.35 times greater than that of northern ireland, so assuming a similar level of domestic violence in the six counties you'd get for the three years you suggest 13 deaths (rounded up from 12.8). again assuming a constant rate you'd be looking at for 1969 to 2014 (45/3) x 13, which would give a ballpark figure of 195 deaths.

Yeah, based on that maths you are right. Huh. Interesting

 

[mango5]

Nice debunking there, glad you caught that woman out for perhaps overstating the situation - or perhaps she was thinking of different statistics during her Desert Island Discs reminiscence.

Anyway, there are some interesting stories of women being unseen/unheard here https://www.uninvisibility.com

 

[trashpony]

Obviously it was me that got the quote wrong. I apologise wholeheartedly to Professor McWilliams for misrepresenting her.

What she said was that more women were killed by their partners than were killed in the troubles. Male violence, as usual.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice debunking there, glad you caught that woman out for perhaps overstating the situation - or perhaps she was thinking of different statistics during her Desert Island Discs reminiscence.

Anyway, there are some interesting stories of women being unseen/unheard here https://www.uninvisibility.com

Perhaps she was. I went on what was reported here.

 

[trashpony]

Perhaps she was. I went on what was reported here.

I expect it would have taken you less time to listen to the DID episode than it would have to do the research you did.

You should listen to it - it's very interesting

 

[purenarcotic]

For particularly depressing reading on women killed, counting dead women is a good resource. Their research forms part of the femicide census which you can get on the women’s aid website.

 

[polly]

Anyway, there are some interesting stories of women being unseen/unheard here https://www.uninvisibility.com

I love this! Thank you I mean for its positivity and feeling of a friendly outstretched hand, rather than the stories, obvs.

 

[equationgirl]

I get this at work a fair amount. I'm sure most if not all women do. I was in a meeting with four men, all senior to me tbf, but it was my specialist subject. And I was trying to get them to understand the solution they wanted, wasn't actually a solution at all, it would cost money and not actually solve the problem.

And they just said 'well the company says it can do X'. There's no bloody way it can do X unless they've somehow invented a portal into the future (and if they had, it would cost a lot more than this system does). Did they listen? Did they fuck.

I got this a lot at my previous employer. To the extent that I even had to send my opinion on something to an external consultant to validate it, because they refused to believe I was correct. I was the only specialist in that subject in house.

 

[equationgirl]

Constant. My boss even said today 'you're probably going to report me for being a misogynist, aren't you?' and I just laughed it off and quietly hated myself. Because it's just easier. I won't even go into what he had said because every day, every hour it's something new. He's not even the worst offender - at least he knows he's sexist And when he's not being a dick he's okay. Yes I do know what I just wrote.

If you snap one day and beat him to death with the stapler, I'll be a character witness. I'm not even joking.

 

[Poot]

If you snap one day and beat him to death with the stapler, I'll be a character witness. I'm not even joking.

He's so bloody cheerful about it, too! I suppose that's the advantage of being Eton-educated, you've no suspicion that you might be being a dick.

 

[baldrick]

I got this a lot at my previous employer. To the extent that I even had to send my opinion on something to an external consultant to validate it, because they refused to believe I was correct. I was the only specialist in that subject in house.

It's a joke. They're spending X thousand on this (a system I'll have to administer btw) and it all gets approved just like that. Meanwhile, part of my role is what we're spending on these systems and whether they're value for money.

*Shrug*

 

[equationgirl]

He's so bloody cheerful about it, too! I suppose that's the advantage of being Eton-educated, you've no suspicion that you might be being a dick.

No incentive to change, because the system encourages him to be like that. I expect it is all a big wheeze to him.

 

[equationgirl]

It's a joke. They're spending X thousand on this (a system I'll have to administer btw) and it all gets approved just like that. Meanwhile, part of my role is what we're spending on these systems and whether they're value for money.

*Shrug*

Yeah, sounds familiar. The last year I was there I spent arguing at great length about a system they wanted us to bring in that was the most pointless thing I'd ever heard in my career. I ended up briefing a colleague to go to an overseas meeting about it, and they believed him when he said it was pointless.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Thinking about this a bit more, it's not just public-school educated men who act like it's a bit of a jolly jape - although they're probably the worst. But "ordinary" men in the office treat equality issues like a big joke and as though they're being delightfully mischievous for refusing to be "PC".