Feminism and the Gender Pay Gap

[Gramsci]

I hired a wife. And my career took off.

I see this a lot in the wealthier parts of London. Well off middle classes using South Americans and Filipinos to do all the domestic work and childcare. Whilst they get on with their careers.

Despite what this article says these women aren't raking it in.

These women come from less well off parts of the world. Live far away from their own families. From chatting to some of them they miss their families.

There is also an inequality gap between different parts of the world.

 

[campanula]

I want my wife back. Please don't berate the mother - yeah, I rather think so. She is already happy to spout that absolute shittishness that caring is the role of a wife. Not a worker, a helper, an assistant...even a fucking childcarer...but a wife. Same old, same old...it isn't even the money - it's the attitude...and coming from a successful professional... Just get to fuck.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I hired a wife. And my career took off.

In the Fall of 2017, I delegated my entire home life to a wonderful woman named Luisa, whom I wrote about. I did this so I could “lean in” to my job. I actually hate that phrase because it suggests that there was some lesser level of job commitment before the magical “leaning in” began. What I mean by leaning in is an insane amount of work. To manage that workload and avoid losing my sanity, I needed someone covering the homefront.

But even though Luisa made my life easier in many ways, the leaning in itself had negative consequences. The big one is this: I lost a lot of hair. At first, it was just some strands here and there. But then, I noticed that the part on the top of my head was a lot wider than it used to be. And when I looked at recent photos of myself, I saw that my hairline was receding. I’d always had a thick head of hair, and now it felt thin as a rake.

I leaned in. And my hair fell out.

 

[Gramsci]

I was trying not to blame the individual. I do think when looking at feminism and the pay gap it can be seen mainly in European/ North American terms. Comparing pay differences between men and women in different European countries for example. Or looking at it in national terms.

An other dimension is that of labour of women who migrate from poorer countries to wealthy ones to do domestic labour. They are part of the transnational labour force.

 

[campanula]

was trying not to blame the individual.

Yep - failed there...but I was so cross I even forgot to do that quote-y thing. Notable how internalised the idea of a 'wife' has become with housework and childcare...and the downgrading of such work by professional men and women (I have been that cleaner).
However, I have to say that for me, childcare was the hardest, most stressful job I have had in my whole life - I was lonely, tired, anxious, broke. My partner would gaily prance out of the door as early as possible and hang out, away from domestic chaos until there was a fair chance the infant was sleeping some time after 9pm. He would then regale me with tedious renditions of the stressfulness of his day (in a nice, warm building, with an ever-open canteen, chatting with co-workers and fiddling about with CAD). His work finished when he left the office - mine was never-ending.
Incidentally, Rutita1 , I got stress related alopecia after the birth of my first.

 

[Gramsci]

Yep - failed there...but I was so cross I even forgot to do that quote-y thing. Notable how internalised the idea of a 'wife' has become with housework and childcare...and the downgrading of such work by professional men and women (I have been that cleaner).

I don't think our failed in your post 62. I agree with what you said.

It is that ,to take a step back from her, the article shows why the gender pay gap should not just be seen from a Euro centric middle class viewpoint.

 

[Manter]

I don't think our failed in your post 62. I agree with what you said.

It is that ,to take a step back from her, the article shows why the gender pay gap should not just be seen from a Euro centric middle class viewpoint.

The entire thread discussion has been about trying not to do that, talking about ‘feminised’ and therefore undervalued work.

 

[Gramsci]

The entire thread discussion has been about trying not to do that, talking about ‘feminised’ and therefore undervalued work.

I know that. Don't get what point you are making.

The post you quote was reply to campanula . I wasn't disagreeing with that poster.

 

[redsquirrel]

Relevant article in todays news
UK workers would back pay transparency to fight inequality

A survey undertaken by YouGov on behalf of the jobs website Indeed showed 56% of workers support making personal information such as monthly income and tax returns publicly available.

"[Pawel Adrjan, the UK economist at Indeed] said a traditional reticence to discuss financial matters among friends and family was being challenged as awareness of inequality grows.

“Perhaps that is in part due to the huge interest that gender pay gap reporting has gathered, but perhaps more so thanks to the new generation of younger workers with different views on money and the workplace"

 

[Gramsci]

BBC Radio 4 - Analysis, The Real Gender Pay Gap

The Real Gender Pay Gap

Just finished. On I player now.

Programme has two interlinked themes. How stats show women earn less. Secondly how forms of Labour are not recognised and not included in traditional economics GDP. Work such as caring.

Breast feeding is exmple. Bottle feeding ends up being included in GDP. Breast feeding isn't. Despite it being good for babies long term development. Economist on programme worked out its worth three million a year.

Emotional Labour is another example.

I think the programme was part critique of conventional economics. Feminist economics includes reproduction of society. Emotional Labour and various forms of caring- which is imo part emotional Labour.

In this country the programme said the ONS calculate unpaid work. But don't include it in GDP in UK.

I would guess its gone up in UK. Tory "austerity" to bail out the parasites in the City means more unpaid work to keep social services going that help to bring up children. See this in my area.

Im not keen on commodifying all aspects of human existence in a Capitalist GDP. But , to be realistic , I think showing how work in the broadest sense should be recognised is positive.

 

[Sapphireblue]

my gender pay gap example is my sisters, and from what i can tell it happened entirely because her senior management were arseholes and no-one in HR noticed / cared what decisions they made. not sure how you can prevent that sort of thing.
basically she went off on maternity leave and when she returned her subordinate who had been helping cover her absence was now her boss. he had much less experience than her and most notably didn't have the qualification that was apparently legally required. he made her job much more difficult and obviously was physically in the position that was her next logical promotion so was a blocker on that as well.

 

[Sapphireblue]

i suppose technically that's less about the pay gap and more about how having children holds you back at work. she went back full time as well (grand-parents available to help) but it did stall her career for a while.

 

[trashpony]

I listened to the Gender Pay Gap programme last night. The thing that struck me was that women do about £100 more of unpaid labour every week more than men.

And Sapphireblue they have found that women are paid less whether or not we have children. I know that I have been held back on the basis that I might/will have children. My colleague that is most successful had her children within 3 years (mat leave>back to work pregnant>mat leave) by the time she was 32. She made it *very* clear that she was done having children at that point.

 

[Sapphireblue]

Being held back because you 'might' have children. Christ. I know it theoretically happens but it's just so awful to know an example of it actually happens.

 

[Poot]

A couple of weeks ago on Saturday I went to a small festival with my husband. His colleague T was there. T had set up three podiums and at each podium a scientist was showing children some interesting science.

'I can't join you for a beer' T said 'I have to take the podiums back to a place 50 miles away in a couple of hours'.

T is brilliant, by the way. Everyone would tell you that. She is very enthusiastic.

'Were you not asked along?' I asked him after we had spoken to T. 'Did you not fancy it?'

'Oh, it's something that the Women In Science do', he said dismissively.

'Do they get paid for it or do they get time off in lieu?' I asked, already knowing the answer.

'No! No one gets time off in lieu! We all work bloody hard!' he said defensively. And he's absolutely right, he does work extremely hard. Really, really hard. They all do. But still. It made me think very hard about the whole 'yes, you should definitely encourage girls into science. But you'll have to do it in your own time' and how that could possibly be an extra burden...

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Being held back because you 'might' have children. Christ. I know it theoretically happens but it's just so awful to know an example of it actually happens.

Absolutely years ago when I first moved to London I was actually asked at interview whether I might be planning to have children in the near future because apparently the management were very wary of taking someone on who was.

 

[friendofdorothy]

swiss women standing up against discrimination.

Swiss women stage national strike for equality

However, women in Switzerland still earn on average 20% less than men, they are under-represented in management positions, and childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Gender pay gap grows at hundreds of firms

Four in 10 private companies that have published their latest gender pay gap are reporting wider gaps than they did last year, according to BBC analysis.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Absolutely years ago when I first moved to London I was actually asked at interview whether I might be planning to have children in the near future because apparently the management were very wary of taking someone on who was.

That kind of reminds me of being asked at an interview many moons ago what my father did for a living. When I asked why, they said they wanted to work out what class I was. Oh, he's an electrician I said. Then I added And my mum's a Bank Manager.

I didn't get the job.

 

[kabbes]

Gender pay gap grows at hundreds of firms

That’s broadly what you’d expect if the status quo is being maintained — 40% up, 40% down and about 20% no clear change

 

[redsquirrel]

Not strictly on the pay gap but I thought this was the most appropriate thread
Top engineering university to open jobs exclusively to women (news story)
Female academics are too scarce. So we’re banning job applications from men (opinion piece - terrible and inaccurate headline BTW)

from 1 July, all our job vacancies will be exclusively open to female candidates for the first six months after they are advertised.

And yet, the gender imbalance persists with only 16% of our full professors being female –

Pieces are rather light on details mind, are we talking about permanent or fixed-term jobs here? Wikipedia has the university "home to about 240 professors, ..., 200 post-doc students and 3000 regular employees", in which case the 150 (academic?) posts that are expected to become vacant during the next five years seem very high percentage for continuing positions.

 

[pengaleng]

gender pay gap isnt a thing, it just averages everything it dont account for hours worked etc lol

it is illegal to pay people different for the same work, has been for a while.

equality isnt priority. ^^ links lol all womens shortlists can fuck off.

 

[equationgirl]

Not strictly on the pay gap but I thought this was the most appropriate thread
Top engineering university to open jobs exclusively to women (news story)
Female academics are too scarce. So we’re banning job applications from men (opinion piece - terrible and inaccurate headline BTW)


Pieces are rather light on details mind, are we talking about permanent or fixed-term jobs here? Wikipedia has the university "home to about 240 professors, ..., 200 post-doc students and 3000 regular employees", in which case the 150 (academic?) posts that are expected to become vacant during the next five years seem very high percentage for continuing positions.

Some of the post doc positions won't be for students, plus there will be new positions for new projects as universities constantly apply for funding. I would expect some of the non academic positions to be included as well.

 

[redsquirrel]

Some of the post doc positions won't be for students, plus there will be new positions for new projects as universities constantly apply for funding. I would expect some of the non academic positions to be included as well.

That's what I thought too. Of course if this employer was really serious about tackling the gender imbalance and job insecurity it would be making these jobs continuing positions.

 

[equationgirl]

That's what I thought too. Of course if this employer was really serious about tackling the gender imbalance and job insecurity it would be making these jobs continuing positions.

Tenure? That's an old boys club if ever I saw one. Very hard for anyone to get into. I know one woman that's done it, but she had to move universities to do so, and not the same country at that. Many women have a story like mine, for example. Did PhD, supervisor wouldn't support them for a postdoc. Got a job in industry and left academia. I wasn't heartbroken as such, as I do not have an attitude suitable for academia (I'm too outspoken) but he said he would support me and then didn't.

I know other women who got sick of endless short term postdocs, and didn't get a tenured position, or who at some point had to make a choice between having a family or pursuing tenure. I know women who've moved to the academic support side of things because they were sick of getting grant applications rejected.

Academia needs an overhaul.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tenure? That's an old boys club if ever I saw one. Very hard for anyone to get into. I know one woman that's done it, but she had to move universities to do so, and not the same country at that. Many women have a story like mine, for example. Did PhD, supervisor wouldn't support them for a postdoc. Got a job in industry and left academia. I wasn't heartbroken as such, as I do not have an attitude suitable for academia (I'm too outspoken) but he said he would support me and then didn't.

I know other women who got sick of endless short term postdocs, and didn't get a tenured position, or who at some point had to make a choice between having a family or pursuing tenure. I know women who've moved to the academic support side of things because they were sick of getting grant applications rejected.

Academia needs an overhaul.

The number of women with PhDs I've met who are shelving books in libraries, it's ridiculous.

 

[equationgirl]

The number of women with PhDs I've met who are shelving books in libraries, it's ridiculous.

I loved working in the uni library when I was doing my PhD. But can imagine there are lots in libraries afterwards.

See also, uni administrative support, research grant support, commercialisation and so on. Even the research funding councils want it PhD for their programme Office roles (terrible pay by the way).

 

[PursuedByBears]

It's not a popular view in academia but I've long thought that there's far too many PhD students compared to the number of viable postdoc opportunities available.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not a popular view in academia but I've long thought that there's far too many PhD students compared to the number of viable postdoc opportunities available.

I think it's something like 80% of people who get a PhD who don't give a job in academia. Which is an awful number and while some of them will have posts in industry or in other posts relevant to their qualifications so many others are in essence thrown on the scrapheap with their knowledge, skills and abilities wasted

 

[8ball]

I think it's something like 80% of people who get a PhD who don't give a job in academia. Which is an awful number and while some of them will have posts in industry or in other posts relevant to their qualifications so many others are in essence thrown on the scrapheap with their knowledge, skills and abilities wasted

Lots get decent jobs that are tangentially related to their subject. We get the odd mathematician and whatnot at my place.