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Feminism and the Gender Pay Gap

redsquirrel said:
Are you just playing devil's advocate here or are you do agree with the stuff in the video you posted? What about Falcon's comments about the gender pay gap being due to feminist ideology?
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I came to the thread and asked for a definition so I was sure what we were talking about. The replies were (paraphrased) "aw do you need a women to explain it to you" and "google it".

So, thinking this was a bit shitty, I went to google and got that video.

killer then didn't watch it and gave his verdict, someone else started about (I think) me being an MRA, and someone else trashed the video because it was 'written by men'.

At which point I left the thread because it's no different from any similar one here these days.

Ask falcon about falcon.

Good enough explanation?
 
DexterTCN said:
I came to the thread and asked for a definition so I was sure what we were talking about. The replies were (paraphrased) "aw do you need a women to explain it to you" and "google it".

So, thinking this was a bit shitty, I went to google and got that video.

killer then didn't watch it and gave his verdict, someone else started about (I think) me being an MRA, and someone else trashed the video because it was 'written by men'.

At which point I left the thread because it's no different from any similar one here these days.

Ask falcon about falcon.

Good enough explanation?
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1. Yes. I suggested you google because it's a well known term and I'm sick of explaining this stuff.

2. I don't know how you got that video. It doesn't come up when I google.

3. It was written by men, whereas many of the people on this thread have serious life-affecting experience of the pay gap, not the written-by-men comedy version. It's actually quite insulting.

4. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.
 
DexterTCN said:
I came to the thread and asked for a definition so I was sure what we were talking about. The replies were (paraphrased) "aw do you need a women to explain it to you" and "google it".

So, thinking this was a bit shitty, I went to google and got that video.

killer then didn't watch it and gave his verdict, someone else started about (I think) me being an MRA, and someone else trashed the video because it was 'written by men'.

At which point I left the thread because it's no different from any similar one here these days.

Ask falcon about falcon.

Good enough explanation?
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You were pointed to the ONS report on the gender pay gap
 
kabbes said:
You were pointed to the ONS report on the gender pay gap
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Mainly this.

But also...


You defending "the system", mate?

(and please define "the system" from production to reproduction of Labour, and the mechanism of reproduction plz.. Cuz I bet I can and u can't... Even without bringing female exploitation into it)
 
kabbes said:
You were pointed to the ONS report on the gender pay gap
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ElizabethofYork said:
fishfinger put up a perfectly good link earlier. But if you're too lazy to look - then here it is: Gender pay gap in the UK - Office for National Statistics
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Which starts...
Differences in pay between women and men by age, region, full-time and part-time, and occupation as compiled from the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE). The gender pay gap is the percentage difference between men's and women’s median hourly earnings, across all jobs in the UK; it is not a measure of the difference in pay between men and women for doing the same job.
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Which is a different definition from the one here.
 
When has dexter ever given a shit anyway?
Falcon's posts have given him an anti-feminist hard-on.

Stop moaning women.
 
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Gramsci said:
BBC Radio 4 - Analysis, The Real Gender Pay Gap

The Real Gender Pay Gap

Just finished. On I player now.

Programme has two interlinked themes. How stats show women earn less. Secondly how forms of Labour are not recognised and not included in traditional economics GDP. Work such as caring.

Breast feeding is exmple. Bottle feeding ends up being included in GDP. Breast feeding isn't. Despite it being good for babies long term development. Economist on programme worked out its worth three million a year.

Emotional Labour is another example.

I think the programme was part critique of conventional economics. Feminist economics includes reproduction of society. Emotional Labour and various forms of caring- which is imo part emotional Labour.

In this country the programme said the ONS calculate unpaid work. But don't include it in GDP in UK.

I would guess its gone up in UK. Tory "austerity" to bail out the parasites in the City means more unpaid work to keep social services going that help to bring up children. See this in my area.

Im not keen on commodifying all aspects of human existence in a Capitalist GDP. But , to be realistic , I think showing how work in the broadest sense should be recognised is positive.
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DexterTCN

Here is one look at the gender pay gap.
 
My definition of the pay gap would include unpaid Labour. As Ive said elsewhere some feminists ( correctly imo) see the reproduction of society as containing a lot of unpaid Labour. Which is mainly done by women.

So closing the gender pay gap isn't just about equal wages its about transforming society.

Falcon mistake is to see this as a competition. Pitting men against women. Which is how Falcon sees Feminism. Women trying to replace male privilege with the mirror opposite.

Its in all peoples interests to see a more equal society.

Been reading the US Feminist Bell Hooks on weekend. This is , I think, some of what she is putting forward. In her discussions of race , class and Feminism in US context.
 
1. It’s been illegal for decades to pay men and women different rates for the same work. The incidents of women taking employers to court for doing so are now very rare.

2. If it were true that the thousands of companies that face bankruptcy every year could delay the moment by replacing their male workforce with - it is argued - a lower cost female workforce, managers - by their fiduciary obligations to their Boards and Shareholders - would be compelled to. In fact, not only is this is not commonly observed it is - being illegal - never observed.

3. Under the influence of feminism as the ideology and delivery mechanism for education, 35,000 fewer boys than girls (in the UK) now go to University, and education attainment for (mostly white, working class boys) are collapsing. As a consequence, both absolute and hourly average incomes are higher for women in their 20s than men.

Lobbyists for the feminist industry have no response to these observations. The wage gap claim is merely the proliferation of a lie in service of their members’ economic interests.
 
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Falcon said:
1. It’s been illegal for decades to pay man and women different rates for the same work. The incidents of women taking employers to court for doing so are now very rare.

2. If it were true that the thousands of companies that face bankruptcy could delay the moment by replacing their male workforce with - it is argued - a lower cost female workforce, they would. In fact not only is this is not commonly observed, it is never observed.

3. Under the influence of feminism as the ideology and delivery mechanism for education, 35,000 fewer boys than girls (in the UK) now go to University. As a consequence, both absolute and hourly average incomes are higher for women in their 20s than men.

Lobbyists for the feminist industry have no rephrase to these observations. The wage gap claim is merely the proliferation of a lie on service of their members’ economic interests.
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Fuck - and I cannot stress this enough - off.
 
Falcon said:
1. It’s been illegal for decades to pay man and women different rates for the same work. The incidents of women taking employers to court for doing so are now very rare.

2. If it were true that the thousands of companies that face bankruptcy could delay the moment by replacing their male workforce with - it is argued - a lower cost female workforce, they would. In fact not only is this is not commonly observed, it is never observed.

3. Under the influence of feminism as the ideology and delivery mechanism for education, 35,000 fewer boys than girls (in the UK) now go to University. As a consequence, both absolute and hourly average incomes are higher for women in their 20s than men.

Lobbyists for the feminist industry have no rephrase to these observations. The wage gap claim is merely the proliferation of a lie on service of their members’ economic interests.
Click to expand...

The number of claims issued is a poor measure of equal pay, given there are many disincentives to legal action.

But even if you're right that, increasingly, women and men are being paid the same for the same work, that overlooks an important part of the wage gap - that women are disproportionately represented in less well paid jobs.

What are the sources for your claims in (3)? Also, it's notable that you've picked the twenties as the basis for comparison. This ignores ther fact that differentials grow as women have children, which typically happens later.
 
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Falcon said:
1. It’s been illegal for decades to pay man and women different rates for the same work. The incidents of women taking employers to court for doing so are now very rare.

2. If it were true that the thousands of companies that face bankruptcy could delay the moment by replacing their male workforce with - it is argued - a lower cost female workforce, they would. In fact not only is this is not commonly observed, it is never observed.

3. Under the influence of feminism as the ideology and delivery mechanism for education, 35,000 fewer boys than girls (in the UK) now go to University. As a consequence, both absolute and hourly average incomes are higher for women in their 20s than men.

Lobbyists for the feminist industry have no rephrase to these observations. The wage gap claim is merely the proliferation of a lie on service of their members’ economic interests.
Click to expand...

Oh, thanks for putting us straight. Why do you think women rarely take employers to court? Maybe you could spend more than 3 seconds thinking about that, as a starting point. And then you can start thinking about why women are still being paid less than men despite it apparently being against the law even though women are apparently better qualified. Almost like they are given different job titles or something, or like we don't pay traditional female roles as much.

Phew, I'm glad the patriarchy has been slain, though.
 
Falcon said:
1. It’s been illegal for decades to pay men and women different rates for the same work. The incidents of women taking employers to court for doing so are now very rare.

2. If it were true that the thousands of companies that face bankruptcy every year could delay the moment by replacing their male workforce with - it is argued - a lower cost female workforce, managers - by their fiduciary obligations to their Boards and Shareholders - would be compelled to. In fact, not only is this is not commonly observed it is - being illegal - never observed.

3. Under the influence of feminism as the ideology and delivery mechanism for education, 35,000 fewer boys than girls (in the UK) now go to University, and education attainment for (mostly white, working class boys) are collapsing. As a consequence, both absolute and hourly average incomes are higher for women in their 20s than men.

Lobbyists for the feminist industry have no response to these observations. The wage gap claim is merely the proliferation of a lie in service of their members’ economic interests.
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So how do you explain the fact that women are so very often still paid less than men, even in the public sector?
 
Poot said:
Oh, thanks for putting us straight. Why do you think women rarely take employers to court? Maybe you could spend more than 3 seconds thinking about that, as a starting point. And then you can start thinking about why women are still being paid less than men despite it apparently being against the law even though women are apparently better qualified. Almost like they are given different job titles or something, or like we don't pay traditional female roles as much.

Phew, I'm glad the patriarchy has been slain, though.
Click to expand...
Yes - why didn't I take my last employer to court when I found out a man was being paid more than me for a less skilled job?
1) hard evidence is hard to obtain. Do you think men would offer up their wage slips for my inspection?
2) HR said pay was confidential but swore blind it wasn't a breach of of the equal pay act, that it was market forces and perfectly ok.
3) no support from other staff - most of my overworked and underpaid female co workers didnt like to make a fuss / assumed there was no point / had no energy to fight
4) my union could do nothing
5) doesn't it cost a fortune to take anyone to court?
6) How do you do even start a legal process like that - with no knowledge of how to or support from co-workers or union?
7) I had no fight left in me. (And I'm in the relatively priviledged position of having no dependant, having savings and can afford to work parttime)

Women in my age group and older are most likely to be paid less. Women over 60 started work when most women were routinely paid less, were still effectly barred / not welcomed into many jobs / were legally sacked when pregnant / could still pay less stamp and get fewer benefits/ had to put up with appalling sexism and harrassment as the norm in the 60s/70s/ 80s. Women over 60 have earned less than men over their lifetimes so have less savings and smaller pensions and have to work an unexpected 5 years extra with little warning.

I'm glad women in their 20s earn more - if that continues though out their lives perhaps then we'll have cause to celebrate.
 
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For the record, gender pay gap reporting for the year 2019/20 has been suspended due to the impact of coronavirus. Which is a bit of a shame but understandable.

It's also a shame that Falcon didn't actually understand what the gender pay gap is, but never mind. I guess the patriarchy isn't smashed after all...
 
Women have done badly under govt lockdown scheme for the self employed, based on last three years earnings it completely ignores maternity leave.
 
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