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Feminism and the silencing of women

friendofdorothy said:
so you feel comfortable using non gendered 'human' here? so is the depth degradation you speak of of the whole human race, men and women equally sharing these depths? Is this some linguistic picky point scoring?

Even now you can't you bring yourself to speak out against the men who comitted this crime, and the men (and lets not pretend it isn't overwhelmingly men this porn site is aimed at) who compound this vile crime by using it to wank over.

or are we back to not-all-men-etc? No its not all men, just 35,000 of them a second.

Pickyman is this how you show your solidary with abused women? is this how you bear witness and speak up for silenced women? You disgust me. Please don't reply with glib word play just FUCK OFF THIS THREAD.
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Tbh I thought when I said it was vile, when I said it plumbed new depths of human degradation I thought that indicated at the very least disgust with the crime and its perpetrators. Maybe in retrospect I should have used different language. But you can fuck right off if you think you can suggest I have anything but the greatest contempt for anyone who looks online for a film of this or who watches it to get their jollies - I've not given you any grounds to think that
 
8ball said:
I'm not going to pretend to know how it would feel seeing that as a woman, but as a bloke it's one of those things where it's just like at that second of seeing something, the world became a darker and shitter and more shifty and untrustworthy place.
It wasn't starting from the best baseline, either.
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I'm glad you are trying, but I am surprised you did not see it before.

I felt it for the first time when as a teenager there was front page news about a man murdering lots of women, in such graphic detail that they called him the Yorkshire Ripper. While on page 3 a picture of a half naked woman appeared for 'fun' in those newspapers. Women were blamed, judged and dismissed for being whores. Women and girls were told to alter their behaviour. I felt was being blamed, being held responsible for male sexual agression. Years later I found out that early victims and witnesses weren't listened to, that their evidence was discounted because it didn't fit the male police view that this was a crime only against 'bad' women. Seriously wtf.

I don't find anything about this thread funny.
 
Thing is, it does tend to be the elephant in the room, doesn't it, the fact that most violent crimes are committed by men. Fingers are pointed at all sorts of other demographics in different circumstances but considering how much we should be talking about men doing the murdering and raping, it's pretty much not mentioned. The press talks about grooming gangs, and people preying on drunk women, and date rape is a problem. But no one ever comes out and says what these situations have in common and actually addresses the fucking problem.
 
Pickman's model said:
Maybe in retrospect I should have used different language.
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Your language has given me every reason to think you don't think much about the abused and murdered women being discussed much. Femicide is the ultimate silencing.

you are 2nd in the list of most replies on this thread. You take up space in a thread about the silencing of women and you didn't consider your language. Not really, no.

You would be better to have some respect and just shut the fuck up.
 
There have been massive demonstrations by women in cities across India following that latest horror, as there were a few years ago after the gang rape of a woman on a bus (those led to longer sentences for rapists). There was as I recall one where women joined hands in their thousands and made a ‘wall of women’ stretching for miles but can’t find it now.
 
Pickman's model said:
Tbh I thought when I said it was vile, when I said it plumbed new depths of human degradation I thought that indicated at the very least disgust with the crime and its perpetrators. Maybe in retrospect I should have used different language. But you can fuck right off if you think you can suggest I have anything but the greatest contempt for anyone who looks online for a film of this or who watches it to get their jollies - I've not given you any grounds to think that
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Nobody is suggesting you're supporting or excusing what's happened. The issue is you, a male, appearing keen not to accept this is a crime committed by males.
 
Poot said:
Thing is, it does tend to be the elephant in the room, doesn't it, the fact that most violent crimes are committed by men. Fingers are pointed at all sorts of other demographics in different circumstances but considering how much we should be talking about men doing the murdering and raping, it's pretty much not mentioned. The press talks about grooming gangs, and people preying on drunk women, and date rape is a problem. But no one ever comes out and says what these situations have in common and actually addresses the fucking problem.
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yes I was thinking about this by reading news / media its easy to get an impression it works equally both ways. A murderous woman equals big news, where as men murdering women is so everday is it not always news. Same with sexually motivated violence. I recall hearing stats on this a while back but dont know where to look for them- found this https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicide but I cant take in the number/trends etc.
As in previous years, women were far more likely than men to be killed by partners or ex-partners (33% of female victims compared with 1% of male victims), and men were more likely than women to be killed by friends or acquaintances (25% of male victims compared with 7% of female victims).
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If any male poster says not all.... or what about... I'll fucking scream.
 
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friendofdorothy said:
If any male poster says not all.... or what about... I'll fucking scream.
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Yes, all.

Not that all men do it, but that all men have a role to play (for better or worse) in creating a prevailing male culture.

Historically, there's been plenty of times I've turned a blind eye to off-key shit. But no more.

And, I'll be honest, that's not because of some epiphany; it's because I have two daughters.

I don't want them to grow up in a world that I may previously have had an unwitting (but culpable) part in perpetuating.

It's not enough that I've never abused a woman, if I've been part of a culture that's facilitated the abuse of women. Even unintentionally.
 
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Oh my god that is honestly so shocking. Really really sick. Men get turned on by power, by using their power to put women in their place. They enjoy it and they get off on it.

I know men can be respectful and all the rest but even a cursory glance at porn hub tells you this shit let alone real life.
 
Athos said:
Nobody is suggesting you're supporting or excusing what's happened. The issue is you, a male, appearing keen not to accept this is a crime committed by males.
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imo that's really rather a reach and if that's what some people think I'm not sure how they've arrived at that position. Obviously it was a crime committed by men. I've not denied that or sought to make light of it.
 
scifisam said:
Nah, don't even joke about that.
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I’m not fucking joking. I did react there and I’m sorry Men commit a lot of crimes against women but it tends to be the same ones doing it again and again. Statistics are pretty solid on this. It’s a sad fact but most women are abused by men who have done it many times.

In my cohort we found someone who had been abusing women a while back and totally ostracised that person. It might not have made that much difference to future behaviour (nothing was really provable and we checked). In my group of friends we certainly aren’t turning a blind eye, though. If we can be better, then for the main part we’re trying to listen. Some of us, anyway. Of course, I can’t necessarily know if there are others amongst my group. I hope not. I can’t speak for all men, just for one.

Saying all men are culpable for the crimes of all men is equivalent to saying all women are culpable for the crimes of all women. Is my DNA or Y chromosome a marker of hatred now? In other contexts we tend to find that kind of talk pretty suspect.

The demonstrations in India, and generally, are totally justified in my view, by the way.

That post earlier made me very sad, and that is all I was trying to say.

If you fear and mistrust men, then I think that is possibly sadly justified. I don’t have to like it or see it as something natural or necessary, though, and I’m fucked if I’m going to identify with the offenders. I claim my right to find them detestable.

I’ll leave this thread alone now if that is best, because I had no intention of minimising anyone’s experiences with what I said. I just meant that I was saddened and sickened. The world has become a smaller and nastier place, those porn sites are a fucking cesspit and my thoughts about many men’s internet search habits has become tainted.

I hope some posters here can accept that what I said was meant in a spirit of solidarity.

I’m happy to step away, but want to leave saying everyone here has the right to reply and no one is being silenced by this post.

And that I wish everyone here well and that no one here suffers anything like what we are discussing. Never again anyway. :(
 
Er, you might want to read back a few posts before going off on one at me so strongly. I haven't said anything remotely like you're saying in your post (nobody has) and a couple of posts ago I defended you.
 
8ball said:
I
Saying all men are culpable for the crimes of all men is equivalent to saying all women are culpable for the crimes of all women. Is my DNA or Y chromosome a marker of hatred now? In other contexts we tend to find that kind of talk pretty suspect.
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Totally agree with you. Holding all men culpable is way off the mark.
 
So it's up to men to sort the patriarchy - which has a hugely negative impact on men as well as women - because it's just a matter of accepting joint culpability in that system?

The reason men come out with the old NAM stuff is because it's fucking true. Doesn't mean I can't or won't examine my behaviour and the impact I can have, for example, on the 180-odd young men under my care where I work.
 
trashpony said:
Unless and until we can name the problem - male violence - we cannot find the solution.
And despite @friendofdorothy’s heartfelt pleas, the ‘not all men’ posts have immediately followed.

God I’m disappointed in this place sometimes.
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I'm sorry you feel like that. But I'm going to continue to say "not all men". Because it's NOT all men. And I hate it when groups of people are lumped together like that. I hate hearing "all women ......" or "all immigrants ....." or all anyone else.
 
You almost never hear 'all men do this' though do you? There've been a few at the more extreme ends of radical feminism who've said things like 'all men are rapists' but they've generally been treated as cranks. If I did hear anyone putting forward that argument I'd reach for 'Not All Men' of course. It usually comes out in response to any sort of suggestion that anything like this is gendered at all though and it's only meant to obscure as far as I can see.
 
The reason people leaping in to say "not all men" is annoying is because it's arguing against a point nobody's made. Saying that make violence is a problem does not mean you're saying all men do it.

This thread is about the silencing of women and now it's about defending men from non-existent accusations.
 
Also, when it was said that this is a “new low for humanity” (not going to quote the post, it’s already been contentious) please be aware that this is not “new” at all. It’s a hideous frightening crime, but it’s far from new.

Someone else said (again, I’m not going to quote) - or seemed to be saying - that the world now feels a little sicker and nasty than it was before they’d learned of this particular story. I have to say that the potential for this level of despicable danger doesn’t feel like a new understanding to me.


This is not new. Nor is it a deeper depth.
 
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ElizabethofYork said:
No, you didn't. But you complained about people saying "Not all men".

Anyway, this is all semantics and diverting away from an important conversation.
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FoD politely requested people not to immediately start the "not all men" comments. That's not because she thinks all men are violent, it's because by now people should understand that when you talk about male violence, you're not accusing all men. It's not necessary to jump in and say not all men. And then people instantly did just that, including you. That's what trashy and others including me find annoying.

"Not all men" is annoying, not because we are accusing all men, it's annoying because we're not accusing all men and still some people feel the need to act as if we are.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
Also, when it was said that this is a “new low for humanity” (not going to quote the post, it’s already been contentious) please be aware that this is not “new” at all. It’s a hideous frightening crime, but it’s far from new.

Someone else said (again, I’m not going to quote) - or seemed to be saying - that the world now feels a little sicker and nasty than it was before they’d learned of this particular story. I have to say that the potential for this level of despicable danger doesn’t feel like a new understanding to me.


This is not new. Nor is it a deeper depth.
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The rape being uploaded to a porn site and becoming very popular is fairly new, mainly because that technology wasn't as widespread until relatively recently. I do find it a bit depressing tbh.
 
scifisam said:
The rape being uploaded to a porn site and becoming very popular is fairly new, mainly because that technology wasn't as widespread until relatively recently. I do find it a bit depressing tbh.
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That’s true. But I seem to think that this particular case isn’t the first instance of something heinous being offered specifically as porn. How the fuck do that many men have a sudden interest to see it, and then actually go to a porn site?


It’s horribly depressing scifisam . It’s fucking miserable.
 
scifisam said:
"Not all men" is annoying, not because we are accusing all men, it's annoying because we're not accusing all men and still some people feel the need to act as if we are.
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and it's just a waste of energy and time, generally of less privileged groups having to bloody do it. As one feminist I follow on Twitter quite often discusses, she also does a lot of work on men's mental health and she has never, ever had a woman say 'But what about women's mental health', whereas every time she writes about her other specialism, the victim-blaming of women, it's reams and reams of 'what about male victims of abuse' :facepalm: as though no one's allowed to talk about one thing without talking about another.
 
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