Feminism and a world designed for men

[Athos]

Oh, is this you point scoring about the fact i inadvertently used the wrong language? Well done you. Have a sticker

No, it was a genuine question. But, actually, the increasing elision of sex and gender, which often has the effect of minimising biology, is a new facet of the problem of medicine failing to serve (biological) women's interests.

 

[Manter]

No, it was a genuine question. But, actually, the increasing elision of sex and gender, which often has the effect of minimising biology, is a new facet of the problem of medicine failing to serve (biological) women's interests.

I genuinely don’t want my posts to be used to set people against each other. Care for women is shit; in terms of research, standards, investment, dignity, follow up....

That is in no way a pro or anti trans statement. It’s what I’ve seen, and experienced.

 

[Athos]

I genuinely don’t want my posts to be used to set people against each other. Care for women is shit; in terms of research, standards, investment, dignity, follow up....

That is in no way a pro or anti trans statement. It’s what I’ve seen, and experienced.

I agree with literally everything in that post.

I don't think it's anti-trans to point out that it's sex (rather than gender) that's important in medicine.

 

[Manter]

I agree with literally everything in that post.

I don't think it's anti-trans to point out that it's sex (rather than gender) that's important in medicine.

You could have said ‘I think you mean sex rather than gender’ rather than this tedious culture war point scoring

 

[Athos]

You could have said ‘I think you mean sex rather than gender’ rather than this tedious culture war point scoring

I genuinely thought there might have been such a condition (albeit I couldn't think of one); that's why I asked you, rather than rushing to correct you.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Curious, because while a lot of this article makes my hackles rise for any number of reasons, there are also things that make me think 'Not a bad idea'.

the-wing

 

[Poot]

Curious, because while a lot of this article makes my hackles rise for any number of reasons, there are also things that make me think 'Not a bad idea'.

the-wing

Wow. Some people's lives sure are quite different to mine.

 

[TopCat]

I read about The Wing ages ago but never would have brought it up here as I thinks its insulting to women with rational brains, is bigoted and anti working class.
“Today’s ideal woman is of a type that coexists easily with feminism in its current market-friendly and mainstream form,”

Yeah right, Hilary Clinton a feminist? How many people has she had killed? How many men women and children?

 

[Poot]

I've given that some thought.

In the old days when there were entire golf courses and stately homes given over to 'men's business' women frequently pointed out that it was unfair, and in response received such nuggets as 'but what about the WI!' and 'what about mothers' groups!' This is a group that is actually an equivalent to the actual damaging men's clubs. But most people here wouldn't be a member of either one. I have no problem with men's clubs per se. I have no problem with women's clubs of course. This, though, bothers me.

 

[TopCat]

This critique is pretty much spot on.
They’re empowering women to be better economic subjects within capitalism, empowering women to network, to get a raise, to address the pay gap. Those are real things, but they are really tied to capitalist logic.”

 

[TopCat]

I've given that some thought.

In the old days when there were entire golf courses and stately homes given over to 'men's business' women frequently pointed out that it was unfair, and in response received such nuggets as 'but what about the WI!' and 'what about mothers' groups!' This is a group that is actually an equivalent to the actual damaging men's clubs. But most people here wouldn't be a member of either one. I have no problem with men's clubs per se. I have no problem with women's clubs of course. This, though, bothers me.

It is for rich women or those who aspire to being rich. None of whom would hesitate a second to stamp on a working class womens head in order to climb the greasy pole.

 

[TopCat]

What do you think JudithB of the article and Wing?

 

[TopCat]

I'm in hospital at the moment. It's a woman dominated environment. From contract cleaners getting minimum wage right up to my arragont consultant with all the tiers of nursing and tech staff in between.
I would wager that Wing offers 90% of these women nothing. Thankfully this bunch here looking after me seem likely to have no interest in Wing.

 

[Poot]

It is for rich women or those who aspire to being rich. None of whom would hesitate a second to stamp on a working class womens head in order to climb the greasy pole.

I agree. But I think it's important that I point out that this for me is a question of class politics rather than feminism. I believe that women should be able to climb the corporate ladder as much as men. I don't like the corporate ladder, and they are not women like me. But the point stands. Otherwise we only get horrific men in power. We might as well have horrific women so at least my daughter doesn't feel like she has to be a drudge and has something to aspire to. The system isn't going to fall away before she is an adult. But I don't like the whole system, though, and I don't like those people. I'm making that abundantly clear.

 

[JudithB]

It is for rich women or those who aspire to being rich. None of whom would hesitate a second to stamp on a working class womens head in order to climb the greasy pole.

Yes I think it is too. It appears to be a Lean In type of feminism. Whatever they may claim, they are mimicking patriarchal capitalist power structures rather than working to break them down. Full disclosure: I have only skim read the article. I did not see any mention of child care provision or the cost of membership.

I have been a member of women only networking groups and I have no problem with them. Made up of working women looking to make connections and boost their business sales. The support provided is woman focused and although working within a patriarchal capitalist structure in practice leans towards a more matriarchal way of working. There are ways to support working women that doesn't have to be instagram friendly. I will write more later when I've time to read the article in full.

 

[TopCat]

Yes I think it is too. It appears to be a Lean In type of feminism. Whatever they may claim, they are mimicking patriarchal capitalist power structures rather than working to break them down. Full disclosure: I have only skim read the article. I did not see any mention of child care provision or the cost of membership.

I have been a member of women only networking groups and I have no problem with them. Made up of working women looking to make connections and boost their business sales. The support provided is woman focused and although working within a patriarchal capitalist structure in practice leans towards a more matriarchal way of working. There are ways to support working women that doesn't have to be instagram friendly. I will write more later when I've time to read the article in full.

Have you read it now?

 

[JudithB]

Have you read it now?

Yes, I like a lot about it apart from it's lack of inclusivity due to the price-tag and lack of childcare facilities

 

[friendofdorothy]

big item in the metro today 'The gender health gap nearly killed me' PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines. here are some snippets:

Take abdominal pain. A 2008 US study found
.... women have to wait on average 16 mins longer than male patients to see an A&E doctor
...women were 13-25 %less likely to receive painkillers - a figure thet reduced further if the women weren't white. A 2014 Swedish study found similar results.
...
'Women frequently receive inferior care to men, are screened for disease less often, and receive less agressive treatment and substandard follow-up.
A 2018 study by leeds University showed women had a 50% higher chance of receiving the wrong initial diagnosis

article is based on this book: Pain and Prejudice

A timely and powerful look at how our culture treats the pain and suffering of women.

The author says 'while most doctors aren't sexist the establishment suffers from 'structural sexism'.

 

[equationgirl]

I can relate to that study outcome.

 

[JudithB]

big item in the metro today 'The gender health gap nearly killed me' PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines. here are some snippets:

article is based on this book: Pain and Prejudice
The author says 'while most doctors aren't sexist the establishment suffers from 'structural sexism'.

I would expect that women putting up with pain and not complaining also feeds into this. One of my favourite memes says "mummy-flu, just like man-flu, but nobody gives a shit"

 

[friendofdorothy]

Interesting bit about endometriosis on Radio 4 this morning - saying huge percentage of women suffer this and can take years to get a diagnosis. There was a women being interviewed about the agony she had gone though for years and how hit and miss the diagnosis had been for her. Also talking about a cancer drug that is being tested now. I can't a find a link to this mornings item. But this from oct: MPs to launch inquiry into endometriosis care

The condition affects one in 10 women and, as well as extremely heavy periods, can cause debilitating pain and sometimes infertility.

My thought is if it is so common why are doctors not more aware of it? Various sites say it takes on average 8 years to diagnose. Why?

Why does it take 8 years to diagnose endometriosis?

1. Lack of awareness by health care providers
Unfortunately, the symptoms of endometriosis are not always taken seriously by doctors, especially if PCPs and not OBGYNs, as there is the expectation that periods are meant to be painful anyway. For this reason, doctors might not further investigate what they believe are normal menstrual cramps. To exacerbate this phenomenon, there is the fact that doctors may take women’s pain less seriously than men’s, which can lead to a late diagnosis or total lack of it. Quite interestingly, the reported delay in the diagnosis of endometriosis is much shorter for women who present with infertility than for women who present with pelvic pain, suggesting that clinicians are more responsive to infertility rather than pelvic pain.

This rings very true

Growing up, everybody told us our pain was normal

My grrlf had such severe pain every month that when she had peritonitis from a burst bowel she thought it was period pain. Despite all kinds of intrusive tests they never did find the cause of her gynae pain, nothing wrong with her I think they said, but did offer to remove her uterus, which is not a solution that many women in their 30s would find acceptible. I think they take her pain more seriously more quickly now - only because she can now say 'on a scale of one to peritonitis - it's 11'

 

[colacubes]

Interesting bit about endometriosis on Radio 4 this morning - saying huge percentage of women suffer this and can take years to get a diagnosis. There was a women being interviewed about the agony she had gone though for years and how hit and miss the diagnosis had been for her. Also talking about a cancer drug that is being tested now. I can't a find a link to this mornings item. But this from oct: MPs to launch inquiry into endometriosis care

My thought is if it is so common why are doctors not more aware of it? Various sites say it takes on average 8 years to diagnose. Why?

Why does it take 8 years to diagnose endometriosis?

This rings very true
My grrlf had such severe pain every month that when she had peritonitis from a burst bowel she thought it was period pain. Despite all kinds of intrusive tests they never did find the cause of her gynae pain, nothing wrong with her I think they said, but did offer to remove her uterus, which is not a solution that many women in their 30s would find acceptible. I think they take her pain more seriously more quickly now - only because she can now say 'on a scale of one to peritonitis - it's 11'

I was diagnosed with it when I had investigative surgery to see if I had a blocked Fallopian tube. I was just shy of my 38th birthday and have suffered from gynaecological issues since my mid 20s and have been seen on and off by specialist clinics regarding my periods all that time. No one ever mentioned it at any point as a possibility

 

[trashpony]

Women's health problems are ignored. Millions of women suffer from endometriosis and fibroids and are just turned away when they ask for help. One of my friends suffered such heavy periods that she couldn't leave the house - she would literally bleed through a pad and super plus tampon in about 15 minutes. She had to go private to get a scan which found she had a fibroid the size of a grapefruit. Once it was removed, her periods were normal.

Another one of my friends (late 40s, done having children) was haemorraghing so badly every month that she was hospitalised twice that I know of. It still took her nearly 18 months of them trying various other treatments to finally persuade the NHS to give her the hysterectomy she had been begging for - even though she's been a nurse for 30 years. She had it a year ago and she's a different woman.

Unless we're having babies (or trying to have them and failing) women's health is of zero interest

ETA - and for both of those stories, I can tell you loads more. Just from the women I know/have known. Millions of women suffer. Millions

 

[colacubes]

Yes. It’s notable that I was only diagnosed at the early stages of IVF.

 

[trashpony]

Yes. It’s notable that I was only diagnosed at the early stages of IVF.

That is the only time anyone I know has ever had any assistance without nearly dying from blood loss. Pain? Meh.

You can't conceive? Oh! On scanning you we can see that half your organs are fused together with scar tissue. And we just thought you were being a bit of a whiny baby when you complained about period pain.

 

[scifisam]

It took me something like twenty-five years to be diagnosed. The first 10 years or so, before I had my daughter were fucking awful. Before I was 16 my GP didn't let me on the pill and it changed my life. The four years before that involved SO much bleeding and pain for more days of the month than not.

Can you imagine a world where men have a condition where their arm bleeds unstoppably for a week every month and it hurts, and then for some men it bleeds longer, and some of them bleed in other places and it's hugely painful? Even if it were women bleeding out of their arms in the same way, there would have been major steps taken to combat this from early times. But it's from women's genitals and that makes it bad.

 

[Manter]

Yeah, I had some sort of issue which involved pain and heavy periods and they thought was connected to why I got pregnant really easily but miscarried*

once I had J, a consultant told me they were closing my file ‘because you’ve got your baby now’. I was a bit ‘er what about the pain?’ But I had so much else to deal with (buggered pelvic floor and a newborn. Fun) I couldn’t be bothered to fight them.

*I had a *lot* of miscarriages, to the extent I just cracked on with life and work and so ended up seeing doctors in all sorts of health systems. This isn’t a defence of the US health system- it’s a clusterfuck- but interestingly it was where I was taken most seriously, offered proper follow up and told what questions to ask of my dr when I got home. I didn’t have the heart to tell him I didn’t have a dr, it was just whichever random was in the clinic on the day an appointment happened....

 

[kabbes]

The kabbess had an ovarian cyst the size of a grapefruit that burst in her mid-twenties. I don’t even need to tell you how that medical journey went.

 

[weepiper]

The kabbess had an ovarian cyst the size of a grapefruit that burst in her mid-twenties. I don’t even need to tell you how that medical journey went.

My sympathies. I had one of them when I was eleven and the pain was as bad as childbirth.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

My sympathies. I had one of them when I was eleven and the pain was as bad as childbirth.

I had one of them too when I was 15 and it hurt so much, and responded to pressure in such a way that the GP misdiagnosed it as appendicitis and I was rushed to the emergency room for an operation.

Afterward, as I woke up from the general anaesthetic, the (man) surgeon said "it was only a tiny cyst on your ovary. Must have been pushing against a nerve *shrug*"

Like I was making the pain up or something.

That fucker hurt like a bastard.