Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[pocketscience]

Can you give me a one sentence breakdown of the German article?

it's in English.

Maybe something like "fuck all is happening but we might decide to do something in the future, but then we didn't"

It is happening. Has been for over a decade, and pardoxically ironically as things are panning out it looks like the UK is aiming to implement this very model.

 

[pocketscience]

As an EU immigrant it wasn’t just my worry about my residence status after the referendum result which made me leave. It was a profound sense of disappointment with and anger at a country to which I’d contributed for 33 years. Whatever was left of my anglophilia evaporated that day and I took it as a slap in the face.

After the financial crash and the resulting austerity measures, which gave the Tories ample opportunity to dismantle the welfare state even further, I’m not going to hang around for what they’ll do after Brexit. I’m getting old, I’m not up for an NHS and a benefits system in tatters once I’ll need it more and more. I feel sorry for my British friends who are stuck with the resulting fallout and very grateful that my EU citizenship gave me a way out.

Where in the EU are you from Reno? And when you left the UK where in the EU did you go to live?

 

[pocketscience]

Giving hearsay about someone you knew a decade ago isn't first-hand, is it?

It was first hand for me. I saw the documents & lived the process. Nothing hearsay about it.

I doubt many are assured by your 'what about Germany' attitude and it seems no more than anti-EU irrelevant nonsense on this thread.

Of course it's relevant. The UK is introducing a system that's been widely practised for years elsewhere in the EU. I gave an example of a particular pitfall that one of the most vulnerable groups of people (poor economic migrants) get screwed over by in such a registration system. What the fuck's your problem with that?

 

[andysays]

Where in the EU are you from Reno? And when you left the UK where in the EU did you go to live?

Germany, I think

 

[Reno]

Where in the EU are you from Reno? And when you left the UK where in the EU did you go to live?

I moved from Munich to London in 1983 and I moved from London to Berlin in 2016.

 

[pocketscience]

I moved from Munich to London in 1983 and I moved from London to Berlin in 2016.

OK thanks, just trying to guage the threshold of "that's it, I've had enough" as far a being an EU citizen in the UK right now.
Would obviously be slightly different if you said you were going to Romania or Greece for a better health service. but Germany's probably an upgrade in that respect - although HI is substantially more expensive I would guess.

very grateful that my EU citizenship gave me a way out.

Your actually using the priivilage of your national citizenship and not the EU, as you can theoretically rock up to germany with no job, no money and claim social security and get you HI, rent etc paid for, whereby an EU citizen of another country would need to have a job that covers all that within 3 months or it's deportation. With the current job situation in Germany, that's usually not an issue but moving to any mediterreniann country right now without work is nigh-on impossible for an foreign EU citizen.

 

[Reno]

OK thanks, just trying to guage the threshold of "that's it, I've had enough" as far a being an EU citizen in the UK right now.
Would obviously be slightly different if you said you were going to Romania or Greece for a better health service. but Germany's probably an upgrade in that respect - although HI is substantially more expensive I would guess.
Your actually using the priivilage of your national citizenship and not the EU, as you can theoretically rock up to germany with no job, no money and claim social security and get you HI, rent etc paid for, whereby an EU citizen of another country would need to have a job that covers all that within 3 months or it's deportation. With the current job situation in Germany, that's usually not an issue but moving to any mediterreniann country right now without work nigh-on impossible for an foreign EU citizen.

Even as German I can't just rock up in Germany and claim social security, because for that I would have had to have been employed and paid into the system for a certain amount of time. Until now, I've never had a job or paid tax or insurance here because I've lived in the UK for my entire working life. My ability to claim benefits is no different from those who come here from another EU country.

It's complete fantasy that as a EU citizen one will be deported from Germany within three months for not getting a job, that's the very point of free movement. The laws in regards to registering an address and paying health insurance, are the same for me as they are for any other EU citizen. If you don't comply you don't get deported but you can get fined.

 

[pocketscience]

Even as German I can't just rock up in Germany and claim social security, because for that I would have had to have been employed and paid into the system for a certain amount of time. Until now, I've never had a job or paid tax or insurance here. My status here is not that different from those who come here from another EU country.

That's not true. As a german job seeker, over 15yo and resident in Germany and have no other means of support you have an unconditional right to support (SGB2)

You can't be deported from Germany within three months of not getting a job if you are a citizen of a EU country, that's the very point of free movement.

you can after 3 months if you have no means of financial support and/ or health insurance.

wrt EU freedom of movement, we discussed this on a thread elsewhere. Freedom of movement is fine in the EU. It's just when you stop moving (and here's the crux) and register to become a resident that your freedoms sudenly vanish.
The UK without a registration system is obviously at a disadvantage here as its open to manipulation* or at best fuzzy how any meaningful residence can be proven for an aapplicant initial (3 month) support.
It all falls under EU directive 2004/38/EC.

(manipulated by either that state refusing the claim or the applicant fraudulently claiming)

sorry all if this is a derail. I think its relevant - but maybe we need a specific thread on Freedom of Movement

 

[gentlegreen]

Presumably the UK has insufficient staff to administer these things ?

Ever since I started making plans for early retirement in France, I've been surprised by what the UK (according to the Tory rags) allows people to get away with.
As an "inactif", I will need to prove sufficient income - the basic social security threshold of 550,93 euros per month nett (presumably not including rent and you would need to provide proof you aren't sleeping in a bender) - it's 833,20 € after 65.
Plus full health insurance.

I must also not be a threat to public order.
After 5 years when I request residency, I must apparently not be a severe threat.

-----------------------------------------------

Pour entrer en France :

• vous devez être muni d'un titre d'identité ou d'un passeport en cours de validité,
• et vous ne devez pas représenter une menace pour l'ordre public

-------

Droit au séjour permanent
Après 5 années de résidence légale et ininterrompue en France, vous obtenez un droit au séjour permanent. Vous pouvez prouver votre droit au séjour sur les 5 années précédentes par tout moyen (relevés bancaires). Vous n'avez ensuite plus besoin de justifier les conditions de votre séjour (ressources). Vous pouvez demeurer définitivement en France, sous réserve de ne pas représenter une menace grave pour l'ordre public.

 

[Reno]

sorry all if this is a derail. I think its relevant

It is a derail and your response would only be relevant if I actually had relied on my "privilege as a German" and had I moved to Berlin to claim benefits, which I haven't. Instead I relied on my privilege as a homeowner in London. With no credit history and being self-employed, it would have been almost impossible for me to find a flat to rent (or get a mortgage) in Berlin, had I not been able to sell my London flat and cash-buy a flat here. In reality that is the biggest obstacle for anybody moving to a major city in Germany and it has nothing to do with the EU. Your argument only works if one presumes everybody who comes to Germany can only do so by immediately relying on benefits, which is not the case.

My original point wasn't about the wider benefits of freedom of movement in the EU, it was about why I did not feel welcome in the UK anymore and why I left the country. Under my circumstances, as a EU citizen, I could have just as easily moved to Spain and for a while I was considering moving to Madrid instead of Berlin. In the end your replies are irrelevant to me. I claimed no privilege over any other EU citizen in my situation who would move to Berlin.

 

[pocketscience]

Your argument only works if one presumes everybody who comes to Germany can only do so by immediately relying on benefits, which is not the case.

It's not an argurment, I'm stating the law and it applies to everyone.
I never presumed that everybody would immeadimmed rely on benifits, but unfortunately there is a sizable population of unkilled/ low payed workers across the eu eelying on this.
As a person who can afford to buy a flat in Berlin, in cash, you'd obviously be exempt from this group. And yes, you'd be safe with that much equity to live anywhere in Europe, or even in the UK after Brexit if May pushed this system through with her deal (looking unliklier by the day)

 

[Reno]

It's not an argurment, I'm stating the law and it applies to everyone.

Your actually using the priivilage of your national citizenship and not the EU, as you can theoretically rock up to germany with no job, no money and claim social security and get you HI, rent etc paid for, whereby an EU citizen of another country would need to have a job that covers all that within 3 months or it's deportation. With the current job situation in Germany, that's usually not an issue but moving to any mediterreniann country right now without work is nigh-on impossible for an foreign EU citizen.

Your argument was that I used the privilege of my national citizenship to move to Germany, which I didn't. In terms of the law I only used the channels open to any EU citizen who doesn't plan to fund their resettlement by relying on social security benefits of the host country. That would be the vast majority of EU citizens who make use of free movement.

 

[pocketscience]

Your argument was that I used the privilege of my national citizenship to move to Germany, which I didn't.

well let's just say your privileges work on multiple levels , imagine if you'd have chosen to live greece (I know, highly hyperthetical as their health service is in tatters due to reasons we needn't go into here). After registering with the municiple authorities as a resident (legal requirement) you then try to find a job but to no avail. Your savings dwindle away due to the costs of living and (long after 3 months presumably) you suddenly find yourself skint, on the streets of athens with no health insurance. At that point your're actually an "illeagal citizen" in the eyes of the authorities. As soon as you get bad dose of the lurgy you'd have nowhere else to go but back to your home country to get your statutory health insurance. At that point, you could theoretically rinse repeat (in other EU countries) in 3 month max cycles.

 

[Reno]

well let's just say your privileges work on multiple levels , imagine if you'd have chosen to live greece (I know, highly hyperthetical as their health service is in tatters due to reasons we needn't go into here). After registering with the municiple authorities as a resident (legal requirement) you then try to find a job but to no avail. Your savings dwindle away due to the costs of living and (long after 3 months presumably) you suddenly find yourself skint, on the streets of athens with no health insurance. At that point your're actually an "illeagal citizen" in the eyes of the authorities. As soon as you get bad dose of the lurgy you'd have nowhere else to go but back to your home country to get your statutory health insurance. At that point, you could theoretically rinse repeat (in other EU countries) in 3 month max cycles.

I have no idea why you think constructing worst case scenarios is making a valid point in regard to anything I've had to say. This is getting tiresome and I've got better things to do than play theoretical games with my actual situation (or in fact the situation of most EU citizens who make use of free movement.)

 

[Pickman's model]

well let's just say your privileges work on multiple levels , imagine if you'd have chosen to live greece (I know, highly hyperthetical as their health service is in tatters due to reasons we needn't go into here). After registering with the municiple authorities as a resident (legal requirement) you then try to find a job but to no avail. Your savings dwindle away due to the costs of living and (long after 3 months presumably) you suddenly find yourself skint, on the streets of athens with no health insurance. At that point your're actually an "illeagal citizen" in the eyes of the authorities. As soon as you get bad dose of the lurgy you'd have nowhere else to go but back to your home country to get your statutory health insurance. At that point, you could theoretically rinse repeat (in other EU countries) in 3 month max cycles.

yeh cos after that you'd really want to

 

[Pickman's model]

I have no idea why you think constructing worst case scenarios is making a valid point in regard to anything I've had to say. This is getting tiresome and I've got better things to do than playing theoretical games with my actual situation..

i think we've exhausted pocketscience and should look instead to deskreferencescience

 

[pocketscience]

yeh cos after that you'd really want to

unfortunately a reality for a lot of folk

 

[pocketscience]

I have no idea why you think constructing worst case scenarios is making a valid point in regard to anything I've had to say. This is getting tiresome and I've got better things to do than play theoretical games with my actual situation (or in fact the situation of most EU citizens who make use of free movement.)

As mentioned in the OP and by Yossarian , the vulnerable are going to be the ones falling through the cracks. You obviously aren't vulnerable so probably cant see the relevance. I've been in (and not far off now) what you call a 'worse case scenario' and if I wasn't from the UK my residency would be in jeopardy with the new system. My point is, It'd also be in jeopardy in any EU country if Ii relocated there.

 

[Reno]

As mentioned in the OP and by Yossarian , the vulnerable are going to be the ones falling through the cracks. You obviously aren't vulnerable so probably cant see the relevance. I've been in (and not far off now) what you call a 'worse case scenario' and if I wasn't from the UK my residency would be in jeopardy with the new system. My point is, It'd also be in jeopardy in any EU country if Ii relocated there.

Your only point is that like so many people who are desperate to keep the upper hand on an internet forum, you've disappeared up your own arse.

Outside from what I wrote here, you know nothing about my situation. You have no idea about the sacrifices it takes to start a new life at the age of 55 in a country you left long ago and where you don't know anybody.

While I have no regrets about leaving the UK, leaving your life and your career with everyone you love behind after 33, isn't exactly a walk in the park. Two years later it's still an ongoing process. Had it not been for the sale of my London flat, even as a German, at my age and in my financial and professional situation, it would have been very difficult for me to start a new life in Berlin.

There are various obstacles I still have to overcome. My UK state pension is the only pension I have and I will be worse off as I've retired abroad. That will almost be all the money I'll have to live on at some point. I still haven't got my career back on track here and I live on very little money despite not paying rent.

So don't tell me I can't see the relevance of being vulnerable and kindly go fuck yourself.

 

[pocketscience]

Your only point is that like so many people who are desperate to keep the upper hand on an internet forum, you've disappeared up your own arse.

Oh really

Outside from what I wrote here, you know nothing about my situation.

That's true - And I never claimed I did.

You have no idea about the sacrifices it takes to start a new life at the age of 55 in a country you left long ago and where you don't know anybody.

Oh look, there's you making assumptions when you know nothing about my situation.
Who's trying to keep the upper hand and disappearing up their own arse?

While I have no regrets about leaving the UK, living your life with everyone you love behind after 33, isn't exactly a walk in the park. Two years later it's still an ongoing process. Had it not been for the sale of my London flat, even as a German it would have been very difficult for me to start a new life here in my financial and professional situation. There are various obstacles I still have to overcome. My UK state pension is the only pension I have and you are worse off if you retire abroad. That will almost be all the money I'll have to live on at some point. I still haven't got my career back on track here and I live on very little money despite not paying rent. So don't tell me I can't see the relevance of being financially vulnerable and kindly go fuck yourself.

Look, you came to the thread telling your story. I'm curious because if implemented this law will impact people around me. The only difference is, they live hand-to-mouth and don't have the funds to feed their kids if they are forced to relocate. It's a realistic scenario for a lot of people that can come out of this registration system and I can image the majority of the 35000 that ska invita mentioned will have such a background.
That's a completely different kind of financial vulnerability than the one you've outlined and the fact that you were unaware of your (and everyone in the EU) fundamental rights to support made me assume you'd never actually needed to utilize that entitlement.
So, sorry if I've upset you in any way.

I've got better things to do than play theoretical games with my actual situation (or in fact the situation of most EU citizens who make use of free movement.)

Well, that's kind of the point of this thread, no?

 

[ska invita]

35000 is 1% not registering correctly. Id bet the minimum is 10%, 350,000 people.

 

[pocketscience]

35000 is 1% not registering correctly. Id bet the minimum is 10%, 350,000 people.

I'd say that's still a conservative estimate.

eta: when you think of all the low paid workers, mostly either working black or with creative work contracts, have paid too little into the system, dubious accommodation situation, basically anyone in a precarious situation would have to think twice about signing up to this.
Especially when the local population (UK citizens) don't have any such requirement.
I wonder what the uptake would have been on the ID card scheme before it was scrapped?

 

[Dogsauce]

Everything they do to demonised migrants they will do to the rest of us - charging for NHS, entitlements based on income and so on. It’s useful to have a testbed that much of the population doesn’t give a shit about. This is why minimal issues such as ‘health tourism’ are amplified so loudly in the RW press. Fight it now, or it’ll come to all of us.

 

[The39thStep]

I've always been fascinated about the lack of media coverage/ discussion about the impact of Brexit on UK citizens living in the EU.

 

[DexterTCN]

I've always been fascinated about the lack of media coverage/ discussion about the impact of Brexit on (fill in the blanks).

Daily.

bold by me

 

[pocketscience]

coz it's not going to happen, and never was going to happen Dexter. You've won. Time to relax. Teresa May was always on your side.
Go register, like a good EU citizen.

 

[kebabking]

I've always been fascinated about the lack of media coverage/ discussion about the impact of Brexit on UK citizens living in the EU.

The Guardian was never going to give even a mouse sized shit about people it saw as, overwhelmingly, people with tattoos living in Spain, eating English breakfasts and not speaking Spanish.

It probably did a breathless feature on some well paid middle class types living in Berlin or Copenhagen, but as far as the Guardian is concerned, Brits living abroad are probably Sun reading Brexit types who wear jewellery from Argos or some other awful place.

See the field in which it's fucks about that type of people are grown, and see that it is barren...

 

[ska invita]

Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants / Our legal challenge
Our legal challenge


Hundreds of thousands of EU citizens living in the UK have no guarantee that they will be able to stay, because the Government has broken its promise to give status to everyone who is not a serious criminal. New immigration rules that came into effect in August bar Home Office officials from granting settled status to anyone subject to removal decision for not exercising EU treaty rights. This affects students, stay-at-home partners of British citizens, retired people, and others who do not have private health insurance, as they are deemed not lawfully resident.

The Government’s view is that they are not exercising treaty rights and are liable to have a removal decision made against them by immigration enforcement. If that happens, they will not get settled status, will become undocumented and subject to the Hostile Environment, immigration detention and removal. It is likely many will be able to stay, but it seems the system will be a lottery based on the whim of immigration enforcement. This is a far cry from the user-friendly, efficient and transparent scheme the Government claims it is creating.

Read the Financial Times' coverage of our legal challenge here

<<<can anyone access that FT link and C&P it please?

 

[gentlegreen]

To be fair, it sounds like the UK is simply going to at least attempt to enact the conditions that prevail in all EU countries.

Loads of brits were living and working illegally in France until fairly recently (if not still). I know this because my Tory-voting relatives were doing it between the ages of 60 and 70 and encouraged me to move over near them in my late 40s to do the same ...
They were all let off the hook - which is presumably how my uncle managed to get masses of excellent hospital treatment.

I doubt we (or any other EU country) actually have the staff to do it - the same reason they ended dog licences.

 

[kenny g]

- the same reason they ended dog licences.

WTF?