Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[ska invita]

To be fair, it sounds like the UK is simply going to at least attempt to enact the conditions that prevail in all EU countries.
.

To be fair it doesnt sound equivalent at all. First off the change is happening retroactively. I think thats very different from getting paperwork on entry. And second everyone is currently legally here as opposed to your parents knowingly getting into something illegally, by the sounds of it. Its not about letting anyone off the hook. Once 2021 deadline kicks in they'll be denied all the services and rights mentioned (job, healthcare, bank account etc) at the point of accessing them, whether the Home Office has the staff or not.

 

[gentlegreen]

WTF?

Cost far to much to collect and administrate a 37p licence.

 

[kenny g]

Cost far to much to collect and administrate a 37p licence.

Just thought it was an interesting choice of comparison between dog licences and EU citizens.

 

[gentlegreen]

Italy has come up trumps.

 

[pocketscience]

Loads of brits were living and working illegally in France until fairly recently (if not still). I know this because my Tory-voting relatives were doing it between the ages of 60 and 70 and encouraged me to move over near them in my late 40s to do the same ...
They were all let off the hook - which is presumably how my uncle managed to get masses of excellent hospital treatment.

How were they living and working illeagally?
By not being registered? Avoiding paying taxes?

 

[gentlegreen]

How were they living and working illeagally?
By not being registered? Avoiding paying taxes?

I think they were living off a small private pension so there would have been no point fiddling the tax, but I still don't know what they would have done for health care in the days before Sarkozy drew a line before which people were let into the state system.

I recently found that as a pensioner I would be let into the state system after a living there a year or two - even before naturalisation - and on very generous terms :-
The tax to pay for it is only charged from investment and property income.

 

[Gramsci]

The UK without a registration system is obviously at a disadvantage here as its open to manipulation* or at best fuzzy how any meaningful residence can be proven for an aapplicant initial (3 month) support.
It all falls under EU directive 2004/38/EC.

(manipulated by either that state refusing the claim or the applicant fraudulently claiming)

sorry all if this is a derail. I think its relevant - but maybe we need a specific thread on Freedom of Movement

In relation to this thread this concerns me.

Repeated assurances were made that the settled status scheme would be ‘different’ because it
would not require individuals to prove that they had been exercising EU treaty rights. Caroline Nokes
told Parliament “Applicants will not need to show that they meet other detailed requirements of
current free movement rules. This means, for example, that stay-at-home parents, retired people
and students can all be eligible.”3
But when the Home Secretary altered the Immigration Rules, changes taking effect 28th August 2018,
to implement this promised scheme he inserted provision EU15(c).4 This requires Home Office staff
to reject applications from anyone “subject to a removal decision under the EEA Regulations on the
grounds of their non-exercise or misuse of rights under Directive 2004/38/EC”.
This is far broader than what was promised and puts hundreds of thousands of EU nationals at risk
who are regarded by the Home Office as not exercising Treaty Rights. This has nothing to do with
criminality let alone serious criminality.

Im trying to get my head around this.

Looks to me that initially government promised simple scheme for existing EU nationals. That was broader than the the directive you quote. Now they are starting to go back on that .

File courtesy of ska invita

 

[The39thStep]

How were they living and working illeagally?
By not being registered? Avoiding paying taxes?

Anyone whose got a pension or income from England is taxed in England so no tax to pay in an EU country. There's loads of people who live in the EU without the correct paperwork tbh , the Police are satisfied if you show a passport. If they work there then unless it's cash in hand they pay taxes and social security in that country.

 

[pocketscience]

In relation to this thread this concerns me.

Im trying to get my head around this.

Looks to me that initially government promised simple scheme for existing EU nationals. That was broader than the the directive you quote. Now they are starting to go back on that .

File courtesy of ska invita

Here's the relevant para:

EU15. An application made under this Appendix will be refused on grounds of suitability where any of the following apply at the date of decision:

1. (a) The applicant is the subject of an extantdeportation order or of a decision to make a deportation order; or
2. (b) The applicant is the subject of an extantexclusion order or exclusion decision; or
3. (c) The applicant is subject to a removal decision under the EEA Regulations on the grounds of their non-exercise or misuse of rights under Directive 2004/38/EC.

So section c does seem to implement the EU rule of proof of work/ sufficient funds and HI at 3 months registration. I guess the 5 year rule for perminent residency starts at the initial date of registration along with proof of contributions made throughout the 5 years.
The whole thing's ambiguous at best and and as far asnI'm aware it's being implementated without any clear procedural guidlines.
It's inevitable that not just the eu citizens that are stay-at-home parents or students, but the ones in precarious employment (paying little to no contributions) will be impacted the most.

As a side note: I just goes to show how dependent the EU freedom of movement is on job availability. If jobs dry up then no FoM (unless you have significant amounts of cash)

 

[Gramsci]

Saw this. France will wait until it see how its own nationals are treated post Brexit:

France also sought to reassure British nationals of their post-Brexit status.

The Europe minister, Nathalie Loiseau, said the country would guarantee the residence, employment and welfare rights of the 160,000 British citizens living there provided that Britain offered the same guarantees to French expatriates.

UK nationals in Berlin assured of residency in event of no Brexit deal

In Germany:

Engelhard Mazanke, the head of the foreigners registration office at the Berlin state office for citizens, told Britons that he could not say what kind of residence status they would get when the UK leaves the EU, or what documents would be required.

It would make sense for the remaining EU countries to wait to see how their own nationals get treated here first before giving rights to UK nationals.

None of this bodes well.

 

[brogdale]

This particularly inept HO tweet appears to be instructing nearly all of the UK population to apply to their 'settlement scheme'.

 

[CRI]

This particularly inept HO tweet appears to be instructing nearly all of the UK population to apply to their 'settlement scheme'.

View attachment 157087

I'd call it gobsmackingly awful - stitching together cheap stock photos of smiley, happy people and royalty free upbeat pingy music to tell people, many who've been here for decades, worked, paid taxes, own homes, have British children, partners, etc., that they have to apply for scheme that's costly, invasive, restrictive that in no way guarantees you can stay. And knowing the Home Office as we do, it will continue to be an anxiety-inducing, confusing and frustrating bureaucratic fuck up. There are over 3m non British EU citizens in the UK who'll have to do this.

 

[The39thStep]

1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure

 

[CRI]

1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure

Yes, but, EU countries have systems in place so citizens of other EU countries can live and work there. It's the UK Tory Government's choice to remove the UK from the EU, forcing EU countries to introduce new procedures for dealing with UK citizens. They'd prefer not to have to do it you know.

Edit: And not surprisingly, the Home Office seems incapable of getting its collective head around the situation for people in Northern Ireland who hold Irish Citizenship off the back of the Good Friday agreement, so that will be good fun.


The Good Friday Agreement is under siege – and so is my right to be Irish in Northern Ireland | View

 

[DexterTCN]

1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure

Yeah they're fucked.

 

[tim]

1.3m UK citizens living in EU countries will have to go through some sort of proceedure

Yes, deportation, if the British government insists on making things difficult for EU nationals here

 

[spitfire]

Fuck 'em. Cunts.

25 years my girlfriend has lived here and now they want £65 for her to stay? And for my 6 year old? What happens there?

First option is to tell them to stick it, which I'm all for. Second option is to go to France.

Hopefully enough people tell them to stick it up their collective little england tory arseholes.

 

[DexterTCN]

Fuck 'em. Cunts.

25 years my girlfriend has lived here and now they want £65 for her to stay? And for my 6 year old? What happens there?

First option is to tell them to stick it, which I'm all for. Second option is to go to France.

Hopefully enough people tell them to stick it up their collective little england tory arseholes.

If you want them to stay in the UK get on the govt website and any advice forums, search social media, use a notebook.

If the second option is better...bon chance

 

[spitfire]

Second option is not ideal, I've just started a new business making smoked salmon and doing that in the South of France will not work.

I'm easily capable of dealing with the paperwork and the rest of it so the "what happens there?" was probably superfluous/rhetorical but thanks for the suggestions.

But fuck those guys, we're fucking livid. 25 years, tens of thousands of tax paid, a flat bought, a child had, a life built.

 

[DexterTCN]

Second option is not ideal, I've just started a new business making smoked salmon and doing that in the South of France will not work.

I'm easily capable of dealing with the paperwork and the rest of it so the "what happens there?" was probably superfluous/rhetorical but thanks for the suggestions.

But fuck those guys, we're fucking livid. 25 years, tens of thousands of tax paid, a flat bought, a child had, a life built.

Scotland is recruiting

 

[spitfire]

Scotland is recruiting

I'm half Scottish and half Irish by heritage, Irish passport holder currently so not beyond imagination.

Not sure Mlle. Fire could cope with the weather though. South of France girl that she is struggles with London!

 

[DexterTCN]

I'm half Scottish and half Irish by heritage, Irish passport holder currently so not beyond imagination.

Not sure Mlle. Fire could cope with the weather though. South of France girl that she is struggles with London!

OK the weather is...discussable. But remember Dune! God created Arakis to test the faithful! And we have multiple non-wine alcohols. (gin is apparently the thing these days)

Also the citizen test is...live here. (also try not to be a dick most of the time)

Anyway...back to little englanders staying quiet whilst people get deported.

 

[spitfire]

I'd call it gobsmackingly awful - stitching together cheap stock photos of smiley, happy people and royalty free upbeat pingy music to tell people, many who've been here for decades, worked, paid taxes, own homes, have British children, partners, etc., that they have to apply for scheme that's costly, invasive, restrictive that in no way guarantees you can stay. And knowing the Home Office as we do, it will continue to be an anxiety-inducing, confusing and frustrating bureaucratic fuck up. There are over 3m non British EU citizens in the UK who'll have to do this.

My measured response to that last night was to tell them to get fucked. I haven't moderated my position now that I'm sober*. I'm not generally disposed to abusive language on twitter but the home office isn't a person so whatever....

#canpaywontpay

*am not really currently sober but had all day to think about it.

 

[Winot]

A proposal has been floated to fuck this up by everyone in the UK applying in order to sink the system. After all, we are all EU citizens. But it probably doesn’t need that kind of intervention to screw up the Home Office bureacracy.

 

[spitfire]

A proposal has been floated to fuck this up by everyone in the UK applying in order to sink the system. After all, we are all EU citizens. But it probably doesn’t need that kind of intervention to screw up the Home Office bureacracy.

There was a comment from an EU27 person that I saw yesterday who said that would make the situation even more stressful for the EU citizens trying to navigate the system.

I disagree.

Break it.

 

[andysays]

Scotland is recruiting

Is this the Scotland which is part of the UK and which will be leaving the EU along with the rest of the UK in a few months time?

Not sure how moving to Scotland will solve any EU citizens immigration worries, TBH...

 

[Winot]

dp

 

[Flavour]

Yes, deportation, if the British government insists on making things difficult for EU nationals here

bullshit

 

[The39thStep]

Yes, deportation, if the British government insists on making things difficult for EU nationals here

highly unlikely imo

 

[Mr Retro]

Not a word about this on the BBC today.

Silence from the leader of the opposition but that’s not surprising. He did call for parliament to be recalled about 10 days after everybody else realised it should not even have broken up.