I expect it's based on something but I'd only be guessing at what parts are true.
Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.
- Thread starter chilango
- Start date
I expect it's based on something but I'd only be guessing at what parts are true.
Article connecting New Zealand mosque shooter to Azov battalion and other European Neo Nazi groups. He had the black sun motif on his rucksack a symbol used by Azov and other fash groups in Ukraine.
thesoufancenter.org
IntelBrief: The Transnational Network That Nobody is Talking About - The Soufan Center
In the wake of the New Zealand mosque attacks, links have emerged between the shooter, Brenton Tarrant, and a Ukrainian ultra-nationalist, white supremacist paramilitary organization called the Azov Battalion
thesoufancenter.org
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I got to the article after looking for more information on the Brazilian neo nazis who were going to Ukraine to meet up with some Portuguese who were barred from joining up. I've no idea about the link tbh but the author Brian Mier wrote a decent book on Brazil a couple of years ago.
I've re read the article and there's nothing in there that is controversial and the subject matter is on other sites . The article could have been improved by adding the twist that Bolsonaro has come out in support of Putin which puts him at odds with some of his backers.
Which bits of the article are wrong/worthless ?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Sure . I've done a bit of checking and tbh can't see anything that isn't mentioned elsewhere.
The article may be accurate for all I know but looking at Brian Mier's twitter feed doesn't inspire confidence. There's a link to an interview with him on the same subject on redfish, which is Russian, along with retweeting this:
rekil
to menny cranks
I'm not going to bother with it. I've already wasted way too much time trying to keep up with what the loons are pumping out.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
None of which is an argument against the content of the article tbh which is about Brazilian fascists and their links with fascists in Ukraine. Similar content has also appeared in mainstream Brazilan press ie Vol Noticias and Folha De S.Paulo and in Portuguese social media.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I get the feeling you've decided what you think on this and you're looking for articles to justify it The39thStep. And even when the sources turn out to be dubious, you're just doubling down on it with 'yeah but the content is right'.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I don't understand what you mean by 'this' , as in I've decided what I think on 'this' and I'm looking for articles to justify 'this'. Can you elaborate before I reply ?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Maybe I'm being unfair, but feels like you are often overstating the importance of the far right/fascists in Ukraine? And any articles that focus on this as well you're approving of, even if the source is suspect?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Well let's start with the fact that this thread is on fascism, fascists, and the invasion and if ever there was a thread in which to post on fascists in Ukraine this is it tbh. I'm not at all sure that you can in fairness ( if that's what you are looking for) find me " often overstating the importance of the far right/fascists in Ukraine"
I have made my position clear several times and for your benefit and the avoidance of doubt I will reiterate that: There are fascists in Ukraine, the existence of those fascists is no reason for Russia to invade, the invasion is not an anti fascist war and I support Ukraine's right to self defence.
There was a link on an earlier post on here to an article by Micahel Colborne ,which didn't receive the 'overstating the importance of the fascists in Ukraine' watermark , which, IMO, correctly states that ignoring the problem won't make the far right go away . He also concludes that "It’s really not that hard to be critical of the issue of the far-right in Ukraine, and recognise it as a real issue, without justifying a paranoid authoritarian’s grasps at the last remnants of a dying empire"
Things which seem to be outright untruths are calling Femen in Ukraine a "far-right organisation", calling Andrey Cuia the "real leader" of Femen Brazil (he was an adviser and managed PR) and calling Andrey Cuia a "far right politician" (he is a centre left politician).
"Giromini first visited Ukraine in 2011, where she met and trained with FEMEN leaders and other actors from the Ukrainian far-right."
The way this is phrased is clearly intended to frame FEMEN as a far right organisation.
As for Giromini/Winters, it is true that she is now a far-right activist, but the article is deliberately deceptive in framing her association with FEMEN as part of her later far-right conversion. Wider reading reveals a slightly different narrative.
Sara Winter - Wikipedia
The person she met in Ukraine, Inna Shevchenko, is a feminist activist who appears to be very far from any association with the far right.
Labelling feminist movements as Nazi appears to be reflecting the logic of redefining Nazism to mean "anti-Russian." Therefore groups which oppose the actually far-right Russian Orthodox Church, such as FEMEN, are Nazis. This is quite a stretch.
Who are the "other actors" in the Ukrainian far-right she met and "trained with?" There does not appear to be any evidence of her meeting anybody but Femen leaders in Ukraine.
It goes on to say:
The interview in question can be read here.
Femen Brazil has no proposals, says group’s ex #2
Since this interview concerns many people, we decided to translate it so other collectives around the world can have access to it. I...
brasilmobilizado.blogspot.com
Andrey Cuia/Russo is not a far right politician as the article claims, and the interview doesn't claim he is the "real leader" either, but that he was an adviser. He is a member of Party of National Mobilization, which the "whistleblower" was annoyed about because the group was meant to be non-partisan, not because it was a far-right group.
National Mobilization - Wikipedia
The Party appears to be not a far-right party but a minor centre-left party which was part of Lula's coalition and part of the opposition to Bolsonaro. So the author of that article is deliberately lying on this detail - or he is defining far-right to mean "supporter of Femen, which is critical of the Russian Orthodox Church, and therefore Nazi."
This article and the entire Multipolarista website is very likely no more than a Russian disinformation project. Grayzone get a lot of funding from Russia and Ben Norton previously worked for them so it seems quite likely.
I don't care to sift through everything else in it, but I think the way it presents the above is sufficient to cast doubt on the rest of the article.
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Things which seem to be outright untruths are calling Femen in Ukraine a "far-right organisation", calling Andrey Cuia the "real leader" of Femen Brazil (he was an adviser and managed PR) and calling Andrey Cuia a "far right politician" (he is a centre left politician).
"Giromini first visited Ukraine in 2011, where she met and trained with FEMEN leaders and other actors from the Ukrainian far-right."
The way this is phrased is clearly intended to frame FEMEN as a far right organisation.
As for Giromini/Winters, it is true that she is now a far-right activist, but the article is deliberately deceptive in framing her association with FEMEN as part of her later far-right conversion. Wider reading reveals a slightly different narrative.
Sara Winter - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
The person she met in Ukraine, Inna Shevchenko, is a feminist activist who appears to be very far from any association with the far right.
Labelling feminist movements as Nazi appears to be reflecting the logic of redefining Nazism to mean "anti-Russian." Therefore groups which oppose the actually far-right Russian Orthodox Church, such as FEMEN, are Nazis. This is quite a stretch.
Who are the "other actors" in the Ukrainian far-right she met and "trained with?" There does not appear to be any evidence of her meeting anybody but Femen leaders in Ukraine.
It goes on to say:
The interview in question can be read here.
Femen Brazil has no proposals, says group’s ex #2
Since this interview concerns many people, we decided to translate it so other collectives around the world can have access to it. I...
Andrey Cuia/Russo is not a far right politician as the article claims, and the interview doesn't claim he is the "real leader" either, but that he was an adviser. He is a member of Party of National Mobilization, which the "whistleblower" was annoyed about because the group was meant to be non-partisan, not because it was a far-right group.
National Mobilization - Wikipedia
The Party appears to be not a far-right party but a minor centre-left party which was part of Lula's coalition and part of the opposition to Bolsonaro. So the author of that article is deliberately lying on this detail - or he is defining far-right to mean "supporter of Femen, which is critical of the Russian Orthodox Church, and therefore Nazi."
This article and the entire Multipolarista website is very likely no more than a Russian disinformation project. Grayzone get a lot of funding from Russia and Ben Norton previously worked for them so it seems quite likely.
I don't care to sift through everything else in it, but I think the way it presents the above is sufficient to cast doubt on the rest of the article.
Thanks for taking the time to look at the article properly, and saving the rest of us the trouble. The bit about Femen being on the right did jump out at me though.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
Nick Griffin's postition now in alignment with many so-called anti-imperialists. Surreal.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Thanks for your response, I asked for feedback on the bits that may be felt to be untrue and that's what I got.Things which seem to be outright untruths are calling Femen in Ukraine a "far-right organisation", calling Andrey Cuia the "real leader" of Femen Brazil (he was an adviser and managed PR) and calling Andrey Cuia a "far right politician" (he is a centre left politician).
"Giromini first visited Ukraine in 2011, where she met and trained with FEMEN leaders and other actors from the Ukrainian far-right."
The way this is phrased is clearly intended to frame FEMEN as a far right organisation.
As for Giromini/Winters, it is true that she is now a far-right activist, but the article is deliberately deceptive in framing her association with FEMEN as part of her later far-right conversion. Wider reading reveals a slightly different narrative.
Sara Winter - Wikipedia
The person she met in Ukraine, Inna Shevchenko, is a feminist activist who appears to be very far from any association with the far right.
Labelling feminist movements as Nazi appears to be reflecting the logic of redefining Nazism to mean "anti-Russian." Therefore groups which oppose the actually far-right Russian Orthodox Church, such as FEMEN, are Nazis. This is quite a stretch.
Who are the "other actors" in the Ukrainian far-right she met and "trained with?" There does not appear to be any evidence of her meeting anybody but Femen leaders in Ukraine.
It goes on to say:
The interview in question can be read here.
Femen Brazil has no proposals, says group’s ex #2
Since this interview concerns many people, we decided to translate it so other collectives around the world can have access to it. I...
Andrey Cuia/Russo is not a far right politician as the article claims, and the interview doesn't claim he is the "real leader" either, but that he was an adviser. He is a member of Party of National Mobilization, which the "whistleblower" was annoyed about because the group was meant to be non-partisan, not because it was a far-right group.
National Mobilization - Wikipedia
The Party appears to be not a far-right party but a minor centre-left party which was part of Lula's coalition and part of the opposition to Bolsonaro. So the author of that article is deliberately lying on this detail - or he is defining far-right to mean "supporter of Femen, which is critical of the Russian Orthodox Church, and therefore Nazi."
This article and the entire Multipolarista website is very likely no more than a Russian disinformation project. Grayzone get a lot of funding from Russia and Ben Norton previously worked for them so it seems quite likely.
I don't care to sift through everything else in it, but I think the way it presents the above is sufficient to cast doubt on the rest of the article.
I knew nothing about the politics of Femen but after reading up on them whilst they may be a very mixed bag I agree they shouldn't be lumped in with the far right. Similarly, I take your point on Andrey Cuia/ Russo/ Shelkovsky's political affiliation at the time.
However, I'm not at all so sure about your assertion that Giromini/Winters conversion to the far right was later though after she passed through the Ukranian Femen. She was already a fascist sympathiser before she went to Kiev to train with Femen in 2011.
Her brother in Brazil when interviewed said “She hung out with neo-Nazis here from 16 to 20 years old. I know the guys. They are active to this day.” . The researcher Adreana Diaz resurrected her page on page on Orkut which was a popular social messaging service on Google very popular in Brazil and says “It was there that she met the work of David Lane and became interested in Ukrainian neo-Nazis,” .
The researcher also located her VK account, a Russian social network, where she left multiple “records and tracks” of involvement with neo-Nazis. Among her friends at VK, says Diaz, are members of the Azov Battalion, the one that inspired the creation of the 300. “She learned a lot about the white supremacist movement and started to relate to people in the movement around the world because of ( of her) ability in foreign languages.” According to the research, Sara maintained a feminist militancy, while hiding her neo-Nazi militancy. “Some of her neo-Nazi friends were also at Femen,” says Dias.
It seems like Femen knew about her politics. In an interview with journalist Monica Bergamo, Inna Shevchenko said: “People have a right to the past. We accept ex-prostitutes, ex-Nazis and ex-rightists. The important thing is that she is now one of us.”
Bruno Themis , from the short lived Brazilian section of Femen, whose interview you linked to also said
So its pretty much clear that Sarah Giromini /Winters was a fascist before/during/ and after her dalliance with Femen.
Its unfortunate that I posted an article that was hosted on a site that you describe as no more than a Russian disinformation project. However, the overall narrative that there are established links between Brazilian fascists and Ukrainian fascists, that the fascists in Brazil call for the Ukrainization of Brazil and have gone to fight in Ukraine isn't contested is it?
Here's a source that may or may not be acceptable Por que a Ucrânia, onde Sara Winter diz ter sido treinada, fascina bolsonaristas? - BBC News Brasil
Yes, that's an interesting article.
Winters may have been a fascist who, for whatever reason, decided to get involved with Femen. What it looks like to me is a crank from Brazil seeing Femen as an opportunity for self-promotion, but getting quickly rejected by Ukrainian Femen for her questionable behavior and then angrily turning on and rejecting Feminism as a result. I think this is quite a different story from the way the article portrays it, which seems to be trying hard to paint Ukraine as a hotbed of Neo-Nazism which it is exporting around the world.
How Brazil Was ‘Ukrainized’
After an obscure—and confusing—term burst into politics, the country’s far-right may be forever changed.
foreignpolicy.com
Similar with the "Ukrainization." It appears that the term originated as a warning against the possibility of far-right elements radicalising the 2016 protests against Rousseff and escalating them, and the term was then adopted by the Brazilian far-right who, according to Foreign Policy, felt it "invoked a revolutionary spirit that paints followers as justified combatants against an oppressive elite." The article frames it in a way which makes it seem like Brazilian Neo-Nazis wanted to "make Brazil a Nazi state, just like Ukraine is." This implicitly justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine by invoking "denazification", and given the ties between individuals involved in that site and Russia state media, it is likely that this is the main motivation behind the article.
While it is valid to draw attention to and discuss connections between the far-right in Ukraine and Brazil, and such connections do exist, it is also important to be vigilant of misinformation efforts designed to portray Ukraine as a neo-nazi state, aimed at foreign leftists with the goal of creating support for Russian imperialism. Things like Multipolarista/Grayzone/RedFish and other efforts, perhaps even individual Twitter accounts, are merely the left hand of a disinformation media infrastructure whose right hand is busy stirring up conspiracy theories about biolabs, vaccines, and LGBT globalist plots for the consumption of an alternative demographic.
ska invita
back on the other side
heres the page translated into english
Por que a Ucrânia, onde Sara Winter diz ter sido treinada, fascina bolsonaristas? - BBC News Brasil
Ativista presa e muitos outros militantes apoiadores do presidente Jair Bolsonaro exibem símbolos ligados ao país; bandeira de grupo extremista ucraniano foi motivo de briga na Avenida Paulista, em São Paulo.
www-bbc-com.translate.goog
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Thanks ska invita I'd forgotten that I had my chrome browser switched to auto translate.heres the page translated into english
Por que a Ucrânia, onde Sara Winter diz ter sido treinada, fascina bolsonaristas? - BBC News Brasil
Ativista presa e muitos outros militantes apoiadores do presidente Jair Bolsonaro exibem símbolos ligados ao país; bandeira de grupo extremista ucraniano foi motivo de briga na Avenida Paulista, em São Paulo.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Winters may have been a fascist who, for whatever reason, decided to get involved with Femen. What it looks like to me is a crank from Brazil seeing Femen as an opportunity for self-promotion, but getting quickly rejected by Ukrainian Femen for her questionable behavior and then angrily turning on and rejecting Feminism as a result. I think this is quite a different story from the way the article portrays it, which seems to be trying hard to paint Ukraine as a hotbed of Neo-Nazism which it is exporting around the world.
How Brazil Was ‘Ukrainized’
After an obscure—and confusing—term burst into politics, the country’s far-right may be forever changed.
Similar with the "Ukrainization." It appears that the term originated as a warning against the possibility of far-right elements radicalising the 2016 protests against Rousseff and escalating them, and the term was then adopted by the Brazilian far-right who, according to Foreign Policy, felt it "invoked a revolutionary spirit that paints followers as justified combatants against an oppressive elite." The article frames it in a way which makes it seem like Brazilian Neo-Nazis wanted to "make Brazil a Nazi state, just like Ukraine is." This implicitly justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine by invoking "denazification", and given the ties between individuals involved in that site and Russia state media, it is likely that this is the main motivation behind the article.
While it is valid to draw attention to and discuss connections between the far-right in Ukraine and Brazil, and such connections do exist, it is also important to be vigilant of misinformation efforts designed to portray Ukraine as a neo-nazi state, aimed at foreign leftists with the goal of creating support for Russian imperialism. Things like Multipolarista/Grayzone/RedFish and other efforts, perhaps even individual Twitter accounts, are merely the left hand of a disinformation media infrastructure whose right hand is busy stirring up conspiracy theories about biolabs, vaccines, and LGBT globalist plots for the consumption of an alternative demographic.
Sorry Rimbaud but there isn't any room for 'Winters may have been a fascist ' . It's quite clear from the Brazilian research into her social media accounts and her brother's interview that she was clearly a fascist when she went to Kiev. Its also clear that Femen found out about her past (one of the giveaways may have been her Iron Cross tattoo) but she still stayed in the group. Femen's spokeswoman Shevchenko said in her interview with Monica Bergamo : “People have a right to the past. We accept ex-prostitutes, ex-Nazis and ex-rightists. The important thing is that she is now one of us.” Sadly it wasn't her fascism that got her kicked out of Femen it was her misappropriation of funds that were given to her for stunt protests.
So I'm surprised and a little disappointed when you say what it looks like to you is a different story.
Similarly whilst it may be convenient to write Winters off as a crank , ( I suspect she was viewed as a useful but dispensable kite flyer by the some of the elements behind Bolsonaro) she is one with a large social media presence in Brazil, managed to assemble an Azov inspired armed camp with several MPs in a protest against the court's decision to block Bolsonaro's legislation and managed to find herself in some quasi official position in the Ministry of Family, Women, and Human Rights .
With regards to the 'Ukarinisation of Brazil' , a slogan used by Winters and other fascists, I think the BBC Brazil article is a little more expansive and implicit than the quote that you use from Foreign Policy.
To be honest I don't get the sense from the original Brian Meir article that it tries to 'paint Ukraine as a hotbed of Neo-Nazism which it is exporting around the world. in fact its emphasis is on the Brazilian fascists embrace of Ukrainian fascism. However I do get the sense from the Brazilian Police investigation 'Operation Azov' , which revealed that the Misanthropic Division was recruiting in seven cities in Brazil for fighters in Donbas , that the Ukrainian far right, not the Ukrainian state, that has been exporting ( to those who want to import it) its various shades of neo nazism and fascism around the world. This was covered in a Guardian article which said
Facebook condemned for hosting neo-Nazi network with UK links
Tech giant criticised for failing to act after being told two years ago about extremist activity on its platform
I'm glad you feel 'it is valid to draw attention to and discuss connections between the far-right in Ukraine and Brazil, and such connections do exist.' I get your point about Russian attempts to portray Ukraine as some sort of neo-Nazi state. However, as Colborne said "It’s really not that hard to be critical of the issue of the far-right in Ukraine, and recognise it as a real issue, without justifying a paranoid authoritarian’s grasps at the last remnants of a dying empire"
I'll take heed of your warning of biolabs, vaccines, and LGBT globalist plots.
.
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Sorry Rimbaud but there isn't any room for 'Winters may have been a fascist ' . It's quite clear from the Brazilian research into her social media accounts and her brother's interview that she was clearly a fascist when she went to Kiev. Its also clear that Femen found out about her past (one of the giveaways may have been her Iron Cross tattoo) but she still stayed in the group. Femen's spokeswoman Shevchenko said in her interview with Monica Bergamo : “People have a right to the past. We accept ex-prostitutes, ex-Nazis and ex-rightists. The important thing is that she is now one of us.” Sadly it wasn't her fascism that got her kicked out of Femen it was her misappropriation of funds that were given to her for stunt protests.
So I'm surprised and a little disappointed when you say what it looks like to you is a different story.
Similarly whilst it may be convenient to write Winters off as a crank , ( I suspect she was viewed as a useful but dispensable kite flyer by the some of the elements behind Bolsonaro) she is one with a large social media presence in Brazil, managed to assemble an Azov inspired armed camp with several MPs in a protest against the court's decision to block Bolsonaro's legislation and managed to find herself in some quasi official position in the Ministry of Family, Women, and Human Rights .
With regards to the 'Ukarinisation of Brazil' , a slogan used by Winters and other fascists, I think the BBC Brazil article is a little more expansive and implicit than the quote that you use from Foreign Policy.
To be honest I don't get the sense from the original Brian Meir article that it tries to 'paint Ukraine as a hotbed of Neo-Nazism which it is exporting around the world. in fact its emphasis is on the Brazilian fascists embrace of Ukrainian fascism. However I do get the sense from the Brazilian Police investigation 'Operation Azov' , which revealed that the Misanthropic Division was recruiting in seven cities in Brazil for fighters in Donbas , that the Ukrainian far right, not the Ukrainian state, that has been exporting ( to those who want to import it) its various shades of neo nazism and fascism around the world. This was covered in a Guardian article which said
Facebook condemned for hosting neo-Nazi network with UK links
Tech giant criticised for failing to act after being told two years ago about extremist activity on its platformwww.theguardian.com
I'm glad you feel 'it is valid to draw attention to and discuss connections between the far-right in Ukraine and Brazil, and such connections do exist.' I get your point about Russian attempts to portray Ukraine as some sort of neo-Nazi state. However, as Colborne said "It’s really not that hard to be critical of the issue of the far-right in Ukraine, and recognise it as a real issue, without justifying a paranoid authoritarian’s grasps at the last remnants of a dying empire"
I'll take heed of your warning of biolabs, vaccines, and LGBT globalist plots.
.
Winters was a fascist before joining Femen, although it seems from interviews with other people involved she had claimed that it was in her past.
Some of the article is true - Winters was a fascist, far-right groups in Brazil were recruiting for far-right militas in Ukraine, and the Brazilian far-right took inspiration from how the Ukrainian far-right were perceived to have made gains through participation in the Maidan movement. I'm not disputing that, I'm just disputing the way it is framed to align with the interests of Russian foreign policy using a mixture of facts, direct lies about a few small but significant details, questionable framing of events, and attempts to mislead readers into inferring false information without lying directly, which is why the source being dodgy matters.
Wider browsing of that website shows zero interest in Brazil beyond its relevance to Russian/Chinese geopolitical contest with the US, and the primary purpose of that article seems to be to generate support for Russian imperialism on the left by portraying Ukraine as a neo-nazi state. For a website claiming to be concerned with creating a multipolar world, it seems remarkably unconcerned with news pertaining to other potential poles of power which might not match up with the interests of Russian or Chinese state media such as India, the EU, greater integration of the African Union, ASEAN and so on.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Well no surprise there then that Winters claims it was in her past , don't they all? No one's buying that tbh.
I'm not going to waste your time or mine in defending the politics of a website that I have frequented once . I have posted up enough material from other sources that clearly supports most of the original article and I'm grateful for you pointing out three factual errors. We are going to have to agree to disagree about the author's motives/intentions.You think its framed to align with the interests of Russian foreign policy , I think its framed to align with the interests of those opposed to Bolsnaro ( who incidentally has come out in favour of Putin) .
However we clearly now agree on the substantial facts ' Winters was a fascist, far-right groups in Brazil were recruiting for far-right militas in Ukraine, and the Brazilian far-right took inspiration from how the Ukrainian far-right were perceived to have made gains through participation in the Maidan movement' My intention and good faith when I posted the article on this thread was to convey that.
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Cid
Proper break this time
Current articles on the drop-down menu for Eurasia on that site:
- German EU official uses racist rhetoric claiming Russians don’t value life
- Who is Pakistan’s Imran Khan? From athlete to protester of US wars to overthrown prime minister
- US-backed coup in Pakistan overthrows PM Imran Khan over his independent foreign policy
- NATO expanding into Asia-Pacific to militarily encircle China as well as Russia
- Pakistan’s prime minister accuses US diplomat of ‘conspiracy’ to overthrow his elected government
And just a little sample from one of the Khan articles:
May also be anti-Bolsanaro, but it sure as shit looks pretty aligned with the interests of Russian/Chinese foreign policy.
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Cid
Proper break this time
I don't have the knowledge to unpack the substance of the article. That is exactly the danger of this kind of propaganda... It's straight out of the alt-right/culture war playbook. Appeal to certain talking points that you know will resonate with your target audience, keep factual stuff broadly accurate (or difficult to disprove), insert own political message. The BBC article is interesting, but e.g they mention the red/black flag as that of the Pravy (Right) Sector party... In 2019 they achieved 0 seats in the Rada, and 3 deputies nationally (of 160,000). I do think discussing these groups and their influence is important, and will have another read of that BBC article and around it later. But starting with shit sources (and then sticking with them) is a great way for discussion to become focused on that instead of the actual issue.
I'll post twitter links to Azov reluctantly, when they're relevant. They were the only source of information for what was being discussed at the time, and having that source in context is useful. I kind of assume people on urban are knowledgable enough to make their own judgements outside of that context. I don't see any value in completely ignoring original sources of information, particularly when they're being widely discussed anyway. I also think there is some value in trying to keep a handle what Azov is doing, their messaging etc... Like it or not there is a good chance any survivors will come out of this with a very enhanced reputation (not saying that's guaranteed, huge amount of stuff we don't know about Mariupol of course), saying 'they're all nazis, fuck them' is just putting your head in the sand.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Ok I accept the fact that you don't know anything about the subject. I can now see why you focused on some website rather than the substance of the article. If you are interested in the Ukrainisation of Brazil stuff why don't you read the BBC Brazil one and the rest of the posts and come back with comments on the issues discussed? I'm interested in it because here in Portugal there is a lot of news about Brasil due to its being a former colony of Portugal's. They are the largest immigrant group here, most political parties here have some links to Brazilian communities and you can bump into both anti and pro Bolsorano supporters ( actually the last group of pro Bolsonaro supporters I met were very very polite and respectful and invited me round for a barbecue!)
Having read your second paragraph several times I am still confused on several things:
1) people on urban are knowledgeable enough to make up their own judgments doesn't quite square with what you are saying in your first paragraph
2)You don't see the value of ignoring original sources but actually did so in your first paragraph
3) What do you mean by 'Like it or not there is a good chance any survivors will come out of this with a very enhanced reputation, saying 'they're all nazis, fuck them' is just putting your head in the sand.'.
Cid
Proper break this time
It's not particularly important, but as I recall some of it was out of context quotes. I think in my post I added something like 'make of it what you will', implication being 'this is what Azov said, it's Azov, you know who they are, interpret as you will'. Probably could have been clearer, think it was fine in context.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Cid
Proper break this time
Again, the article effectively has no substance because it's tainted by being posted on a site that deals in propaganda, and that likely influenced it. As I said, I'll have another look at the BBC article and maybe read around it a bit.
1. Yes, well I may have misjudged urban.
2. Which original sources did I ignore? I think the only one you've posted is Winter's brother... I'm not arguing she isn't fash.
3. I'd rather be aware of what Azov's positions are, see what they're saying on twitter etc. There's value in keeping an eye on that... It is possible they come out of this as a resurgent political force. To be clear I don't want that, but think it's worth keeping an eye on what they're saying/doing etc.
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