Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.

[likesfish]

Last time I checked Le Pen supporters weren't co-opted into a heavily armed battalion in the French Armed Forces.

The French aren't being invaded by a heavily armed Germany led by a dictator in all but name.

Some of the attraction of Nazi stuff in Eastern Europe can be explained by showing 2 fingers to the former colonial masters and all things russian.
Remember France left NATO.
Hungary chezch and Poles tried leaving the Warsaw Pact the Soviets sent the tanks in
Russian minorities were imported by Stalin so are as popular as the prods are in the North of Ireland except they aren't the majority and Russia isn't looking so healthy.

 

[strung out]

Remember France left NATO.

Did they?

 

[Pickman's model]

There's also 'pabloite' (I have no idea what that is)

file under covefefe?

 

[Pickman's model]

Did they?

yup

History of NATO - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hitmouse]

There's also 'pabloite' (I have no idea what that is)

I was visiting my parents a while back and my dad was delighted to see some kind of an off-brand Peppa Pig knock-off called Pab Pig. #justextrotparentthings.

 

[Sue]

...funnily enough Starmer edited a Pabloite magazine (Socialist Alternatives) in his youth.

You so need to get out more.

 

[Pickman's model]

For example, Starmer writes on the Wapping dispute here (p.19)

 

[frogwoman]

You can't trust those pabloists. Still no more of a clue about who the fuck pablo is tho

 

[Pickman's model]

You can't trust those pabloists. Still no more of a clue about who the fuck pablo is tho

 

[strung out]

yup
View attachment 317220

History of NATO - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's something different. France are still in NATO and always have been since the formation of NATO.

 

[Pickman's model]

You can't trust those pabloists. Still no more of a clue about who the fuck pablo is tho

… Sally called when she got the word
And she said, "I suppose you've heard... about Pablo?"
When I rushed to the window and I looked outside
And I could hardly believe my eyes
As a big limousine rolled up, into Pablo’s drive

Spoiler

… Oh, I don't know why he's leaving
Or where he's gonna go
I guess he's got his reasons
But I just don't want to know
'Cause for 24 years
I've been living next door to Pablo

… 24 years just waiting for a chance
To tell him how I feel, and maybe get a second glance
Now I've got to get used to not living next door to Pablo

… We grew up together, two kids in the park
We carved our initials, deep in the bark
Me and Pablo
Now he walks through the door, with his head held high
Just for a moment, I caught his eye
As a big limousine pulled slowly, out of Pablo’s drive

… Oh, I don't know why he's leaving
Or where he's gonna go
I guess he's got his reasons
But I just don't want to know
'Cause for 24 years
I've been living next door to Pablo

 

[frogwoman]

… Sally called when she got the word
And she said, "I suppose you've heard... about Pablo?"
When I rushed to the window and I looked outside
And I could hardly believe my eyes
As a big limousine rolled up, into Pablo’s drive

Spoiler

… Oh, I don't know why he's leaving
Or where he's gonna go
I guess he's got his reasons
But I just don't want to know
'Cause for 24 years
I've been living next door to Pablo

… 24 years just waiting for a chance
To tell him how I feel, and maybe get a second glance
Now I've got to get used to not living next door to Pablo

… We grew up together, two kids in the park
We carved our initials, deep in the bark
Me and Pablo
Now he walks through the door, with his head held high
Just for a moment, I caught his eye
As a big limousine pulled slowly, out of Pablo’s drive

… Oh, I don't know why he's leaving
Or where he's gonna go
I guess he's got his reasons
But I just don't want to know
'Cause for 24 years
I've been living next door to Pablo

A big limousine? bourgeois scumbag

 

[hitmouse]

You can't trust those pabloists. Still no more of a clue about who the fuck pablo is tho

Someone obviously hasn't listened to Yeezy's concept album about the Fourth International.

 

[The39thStep]

You can't trust those pabloists. Still no more of a clue about who the fuck pablo is tho

Prominent in the 4th International, think Ernest Mandel was an acolyte of his. The nutters in Socialist Action are descendants from the IMG which was at one time the British Section . I'll probably be corrected but I think Pablo's basic theory was that Stalinism was a temporary stage in moving towards a socialist society, either him or Mandel thought that capitalism could never return to the Soviet and East Europeans states and just required a political revolution.After Stalins death it was possible that the USSR would self reform , obviously once they heard the Trotskyist word .

I lived in a squat ( shared house with a pre author period Ken McLoud) and IMG members lived on either side. I was in the SWP at the time so I used to get bored senseless by them at times and found it a bit confusing tbh as I didn't think USSR was socialist at all.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Lol 'bonapartist' isn't a bad political insult tbh. Peter Taaffe used to refer to the likes of Orban as a bonapartist a lot

Lest we forget this gem of The Old Web, not updated in nigh on a decade and a half:

Insults

Insults and other rhetoric of the Soviet press, especially in Stalin's time

www.cyberussr.com

 

[Pickman's model]

Lest we forget this gem of The Old Web, not updated in nigh on a decade and a half:

Insults

Insults and other rhetoric of the Soviet press, especially in Stalin's time

www.cyberussr.com

lenin's writings are replete with excellent examples of insults

 

[DaveCinzano]

lenin's writings are replete with excellent examples of insults

With a face like his I'm not surprised he was so keen on ruthlessly exposing his own shortcomings

 

[Supine]

Interesting thread on Ukraine from the perspective of…

 

[zahir]

I'm assuming this is underplaying the remaining far right involvement in Azov but I think it's worth reading.

What is Azov? Honest answers to the most common questions

First of all, it is true that some of the founders of Azov had a far-right and, in some cases neo-Nazi, background. This was partially reflected in the emblem of Azov. But that does not describe Azov’s activities at all. For example, Mariupol had a fairly large Jewish community with an active synagogue, and the Jewish community never reported any conflicts with Azov members.

A similar situation is with the local Muslims or with a large (about 100,000) Greek community. The greatest danger for the ethnic communities of Mariupol, as well as for all the residents of the city, is the indiscriminate use of heavy weapons against civilians by the Russians.

Secondly, Russian propaganda is involved in creating the image of a “criminal neo-Nazi nationalist battalion.” By sprinkling outright lies with a couple of facts that fit into their false narrative (such as the emblem of the regiment and the political background of its 2014 founders), it managed to create a glossy propaganda picture.

Russian propaganda is systematic, professional, and surprisingly effective, especially in regard to Western society, which has no immunity to such outright lies. Western society tends to reject the black-and-white vision of the world and to consider more complex models. Typically for this worldview is to look for the truth somewhere in the middle, between the polar points of view. But the truth, as Polish philosopher Adam Michnyk noted, does not lie in the middle, it lies where it lies.

Finally, propaganda works only when people are ready to believe in it. People are eager to believe in things they have known already. It is convenient for the West to lull itself with fables that everything is complicated and ambiguous because it justifies doing nothing.

Myths about “Ukrainian nazis” are beneficial not only to Russia. They are a strong argument for doing nothing while watching Ukraine fighting alone against a predominant enemy while feeling no sympathy for the Azov soldiers, who are dying defending Mariupol. These myths should be debunked and rejected by real friends of Ukraine.

 

[The39thStep]

Interesting thread on Ukraine from the perspective of…

She’s the sister of a former MP who served under the last government .

 

[The39thStep]

I'm assuming this is underplaying the remaining far right involvement in Azov but I think it's worth reading.

What is Azov? Honest answers to the most common questions

The presence of Azov doesn’t stop me from supporting Ukraine or supporting arms being sent to Ukraine .Neither does it stop me from hoping that there is an effective defence of Mariupal . However I’m not buying this ‘if you think there are fascists in Azov then you are aiding and abetting the Russians ‘ stuff .

This interview gives a far more nuanced view from a leader of , an albeit small, socialist organisation in Ukraine actually involved in fighting Russia . His main point is that a successful victory against Russia is the key to marginalising the fascists and ultra nationalists . I prefer this version rather than attempts to whitewash them . .https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ukrainian-socialist-future-demilitarisation-lies-stopping-russias-war-machine-now

Analogies with other wars might not be helpful but members and supporters of the BUF ( those not interned ) joined the armed forces in the U.K. in world war 2 . Members of the U.K. Jewish community fought alongside them as did members of the British Communist Party and , after the war finished , fought them on the street. Nobody tried to make out they didn’t exist.

 

[zahir]

A more critical view of Azov.

 

[frogwoman]

Just ordered this new book by Bellingcat's Michael Colborne

From the Fires of War: Ukraine's Azov Movement and the Global Far Right (Analyzing Political Violence): Amazon.co.uk: Michael Colborne, Bethan Johnson, John Richardson: 9783838215082: Books

Buy From the Fires of War: Ukraine's Azov Movement and the Global Far Right (Analyzing Political Violence) 1 by Michael Colborne, Bethan Johnson, John Richardson (ISBN: 9783838215082) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

Here's an interview with the author: An interview with Bellingcat journalist Michael Colborne on the Azov movement in Ukraine - ICCT

 

[frogwoman]

Ukraine’s Foreign Legion: 12 important points - C-REX - Center for Research on Extremism I thought this article was pretty good too tbh

 

[Pickman's model]

Just ordered this new book by Bellingcat's Michael Colborne

From the Fires of War: Ukraine's Azov Movement and the Global Far Right (Analyzing Political Violence): Amazon.co.uk: Michael Colborne, Bethan Johnson, John Richardson: 9783838215082: Books

Buy From the Fires of War: Ukraine's Azov Movement and the Global Far Right (Analyzing Political Violence) 1 by Michael Colborne, Bethan Johnson, John Richardson (ISBN: 9783838215082) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

Here's an interview with the author: An interview with Bellingcat journalist Michael Colborne on the Azov movement in Ukraine - ICCT

You highlighted this book a while back, I think

 

[redsquirrel]

Last time I checked Le Pen supporters weren't co-opted into a heavily armed battalion in the French Armed Forces.

This.

I accept the point that the Azoz battalion and other hard right nationalist forces in the Ukraine are limited in power/appeal.
But the 'gotcha' about the RN, Orban, UKIP etc is really weak and stupid.
The radical populist right is different to the extreme right (to use Cas Mudde's terminology). Admittedly there is a grey zone at the edges but it is crucial to maintain the distinction between the two.

 

[zahir]

Ukraine’s Foreign Legion: 12 important points - C-REX - Center for Research on Extremism I thought this article was pretty good too tbh

Additionally, the Azov Movement is often confused with the Azov Regiment, a regiment of the Ukrainian National Guard, which is under state control. Some of the more politicised veterans of the regiment started a political party (Natsionalnyi korpus or National Corps), and a variety of initiatives, projects, and other entities tied to the political operation, all under the nominal umbrella of the “Azov movement.” The movement likes to speak of the Regiment as “its own”, but has no control over its activities, nor does it recruit into the regiment’s ranks. However, the movement does call for recruits into what it considers its own Territorial Defence battalions operating around Kyiv. These units are dominated by Azov Regiment veterans residing in Kyiv, who in February 2022 decided to fight, much like thousands of other Ukrainians serving in a multitude of non-Azov Territorial Defence forces. The Azov Movement has also attempted to form its own foreign volunteer unit but this effort has so far largely resulted in recruits in the low dozens.

This is interesting. I hadn't really appreciated the distinction between the Azov Movement and the Azov Regiment (also mentioned in the introduction to the Michael Colborne book).

 

[frogwoman]

 

[zahir]

Someone linked to this in the comments:

Unexpected Friendships: Cooperation of Ukrainian Ultra-Nationalists with Russian and Pro-Kremlin Actors | illiberalism.org

Taras Tarasiuk and Andreas Umland on the paradoxical contacts between Ukrainian far-right parties such as Svoboda, the National Corps, the Right Sector, and Bratstvo on one side, and Russian and Russia-related actors on the other.

www.illiberalism.org

This descriptive analysis details and explains often paradoxical contacts between Russian and Russia-related actors, on the one side, and post-Soviet Ukrainian far-right parties such as Svoboda(Freedom), the National Corps, the Right Sector, and Bratstvo (Brotherhood), as well as of some other ultra-nationalist groups in Ukraine, on the other. The investigation also covers Ukrainian far right connections to Moscow-related Ukrainian oligarchs, the Yanukovych regime of 2010-2014, and other Kremlin-related actors beyond Russia’s borders. It starts with a survey of Ukrainian ultra-nationalist parties and then details contacts of Ukrainian right-wing extremists with various Russian ultra-nationalist groups, pro-Russian actors in Ukraine, as well as with Kremlin-related actors in Russia. It finally briefly examines the cooperation of Ukraine’s far-right with non-Russian—mostly European Union—actors who have voiced pro-Putinist views or collaborated with Russia. The study uses primary and secondary sources in the Ukrainian, Russian, English, and German languages. These sources include press reports, party documents, interviews, previous analyses, and investigations by agencies such as Bellingcat. The introduction and conclusions provide some historical contextualization and political interpretation of this paradoxical aspect in the evolution of the Ukrainian far right.

 

[hitmouse]

The presence of Azov doesn’t stop me from supporting Ukraine or supporting arms being sent to Ukraine .Neither does it stop me from hoping that there is an effective defence of Mariupal . However I’m not buying this ‘if you think there are fascists in Azov then you are aiding and abetting the Russians ‘ stuff .

This interview gives a far more nuanced view from a leader of , an albeit small, socialist organisation in Ukraine actually involved in fighting Russia . His main point is that a successful victory against Russia is the key to marginalising the fascists and ultra nationalists . I prefer this version rather than attempts to whitewash them . .https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ukrainian-socialist-future-demilitarisation-lies-stopping-russias-war-machine-now

Analogies with other wars might not be helpful but members and supporters of the BUF ( those not interned ) joined the armed forces in the U.K. in world war 2 . Members of the U.K. Jewish community fought alongside them as did members of the British Communist Party and , after the war finished , fought them on the street. Nobody tried to make out they didn’t exist.

That article on the Euromaidanpress site also linked to this, which is maybe a better-developed and more convincing version of the argument:

https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/04/02/how-the-west-enabled-genocide-in-mariupol-with-its-misguided-azov-obsession/

I think the WWII comparison doesn't stand up because, I don't know exactly what arguments Lord Haw-Haw and the like were making, but I don't think they were saying Germany's participation in WWII was justified by the need to denazify the UK. So it'd be more like, I dunno, what's something Euston Manifesto types liked to say around 2001-2003 that was true but didn't justify the invasion?

I suppose there's also an interesting question here about what it means when the far-right and the state/center work together. There's one line of antifascist thought that says it's always and only the far-right that wins and the center that loses from those situations, it's always seen in terms of Ebert and Noske working with the Freikorps and Hindenburg appointing Hitler chancellor or whatever. But I'm not sure that's right, I think that just as liberals and social democrats can get the far-left to do stuff for them and not give them anything in return, so you can get the state or mainstream forces working with fascists while managing to keep them on the lead sometimes - to the extent that Trumpism was a coalition of the Republican party and forces to its right, I think it was the Republicans rather than the alt-right who benefitted from it, and similarly in the relationship between Putin and Russian nazis it's clearly Putin who's the organ-grinder there.
I'm not really versed enough in Ukrainian politics to be able to say for sure, but it does seem plausible to me that Azov represent a strain of fascism that's been effectively played by the Zelensky wing of neoliberalism and would struggle to function as an autonomous force, rather than a form of fascism that's in the ascendancy in its own right? Of course, that could yet change, but I think I agree with Dudin about the best way to prevent that being to not let them pose as the sole defenders of Ukraine.