Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.
- Thread starter chilango
- Start date
ska invita
back on the other side
My concern regarding the far right in Ukraine is not to play games around apologism for Putin or whataboutery, but a genuine concern for what the long term implications are for the continuing growth of the far right in europe, most pressingly the former eastern block countries.... I'm still to read anything that feels like an accurate presentation of Zelenskys position in regards to the far right - I say feels, as discerning the truth from the spin is something i find really hard on this topic.
Is his position one of reluctant triangulation (not that that makes it any better), or genuine sympathy, necessary evil, or what?
Is his position one of reluctant triangulation (not that that makes it any better), or genuine sympathy, necessary evil, or what?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Well for instance prior to the war Zelensky was attacked by Ukrainian nationalists for eg opposing boycotts of Russian stuff post Crimea. (This is from 2015 and in Russian but do a google translate)
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Oh, if only we could look into his soul we might discern whether he deserves our support! And thus retain the purity of our own soul...
Sorry, this is angels dancing on a pin. Those questions are for later - they are a luxury for now, the luxury of those who aren't involved dealing with invaders who treat their victims cruelly and then kill them.
Eh, that's me being harsh. You're right to question. It's almost impossible to know the nuances but there is a broad picture that is fairly clear even at this distance.
ska invita
back on the other side
its not about some armchair "who should i support" nonsense - this isnt a sport - i support ending imperial competition
also i've long been in the shit-scared creeping fascism camp and been accused of overreacting and not understanding what fascism really is etc ... the fallout of this war doesnt make me feel calmer about that
and why shouldnt we talk about it now - particularly so on a thread called Fascists, Fascism and the Invasion.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Zelensky's peace deal in Donbas was heavily criticised by some Ukrainian nationalists, including Azov fighters etc. Right up until the war he's been widely seen by that section of society as being too pro Russian.
www.latimes.com
Владимир Зеленский ушел без оружия (in Russian)
I know you don't intend to do whataboutery for Putin etc but I find this line of questioning nauseating tbh.
any Ukrainian president post 2014 (and before honestly) has walked this tightrope with the far right, and all of them that have showed a slightly independent line to Moscow have faced these accusations. Poroshenko and Yushchenko etc
Zelensky's not without his faults but the shit putin is throwing around he has thrown at pretty much all Ukrainian politicians except Yanukovich
Far-right groups protest Ukrainian president's peace plan
Police deployed around key sites in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv as around 10,000 people marched under a blanket of yellow-and-blue Ukrainian flags in one of several nationalist gatherings Monday to mark Defense of the Homeland Day.
www.latimes.com
Владимир Зеленский ушел без оружия (in Russian)
I know you don't intend to do whataboutery for Putin etc but I find this line of questioning nauseating tbh.
any Ukrainian president post 2014 (and before honestly) has walked this tightrope with the far right, and all of them that have showed a slightly independent line to Moscow have faced these accusations. Poroshenko and Yushchenko etc
Zelensky's not without his faults but the shit putin is throwing around he has thrown at pretty much all Ukrainian politicians except Yanukovich
ska invita
back on the other side
you are infinitely closer to this topic than i am froggy, so i appreciate for you your understanding is already fully formed - im very much in 'trying to make sense' mode.
i can well imagine there is a tightrope for him or any Ukrainian leader to walk - Im not looking to do a Gotcha on Zelensky - genuinely would like to know more about his attitudes and actions - that doesnt need looking in his soul, actions speak louder than that
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Have a look at the links I posted, or just the wikipedia article on him and the sources provided. He's opposed boycotts of Russian stuff, had far right leaders call him a sell out for his peace deal etc. The accusations of fascism against him are ridiculous. Poroshenko had the same shit btw and Yushchenko was accused of being close to the far right etc and ended up being poisoned. Don't forget that right up until the invasion Zelensky was saying that Russia weren't gonna invade. Doesn't sound like a sabre rattling fash to me tbh.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Why do you find ska's question 'nauseating'?Zelensky's peace deal in Donbas was heavily criticised by some Ukrainian nationalists, including Azov fighters etc. Right up until the war he's been widely seen by that section of society as being too pro Russian.
Far-right groups protest Ukrainian president's peace plan
Police deployed around key sites in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv as around 10,000 people marched under a blanket of yellow-and-blue Ukrainian flags in one of several nationalist gatherings Monday to mark Defense of the Homeland Day.
Владимир Зеленский ушел без оружия (in Russian)
I know you don't intend to do whataboutery for Putin etc but I find this line of questioning nauseating tbh.
any Ukrainian president post 2014 (and before honestly) has walked this tightrope with the far right, and all of them that have showed a slightly independent line to Moscow have faced these accusations. Poroshenko and Yushchenko etc
Zelensky's not without his faults but the shit putin is throwing around he has thrown at pretty much all Ukrainian politicians except Yanukovich
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Oh come on I wasnt having a go at him ffs.
Maybe because the people most enthusiastic about chucking around accusations of various Ukrainian figures being fash on the flimsiest of evidence are the ones who are actually carrying out nazi style actions on the ground? That's what I find nauseating about the whole thing
Maybe because the people most enthusiastic about chucking around accusations of various Ukrainian figures being fash on the flimsiest of evidence are the ones who are actually carrying out nazi style actions on the ground? That's what I find nauseating about the whole thing
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Somewhat of topic, but this seems the best thread.
I am wondering it words like fascist and Nazi are completely losing any real meaning.
They are thrown around in so many ways that are at best wholly inappropriate and at worst utterly perverse in the distortion of reality.
From face masks ate fascists to claims that that are arguably fascist state is launching an invasion to kill Nasis, who largely aren't there.
I just don't know if the words can have any use anymore in a remotely sensible discussion.
I am wondering it words like fascist and Nazi are completely losing any real meaning.
They are thrown around in so many ways that are at best wholly inappropriate and at worst utterly perverse in the distortion of reality.
From face masks ate fascists to claims that that are arguably fascist state is launching an invasion to kill Nasis, who largely aren't there.
I just don't know if the words can have any use anymore in a remotely sensible discussion.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The issue for me wasn't whether you were having a go at @ska it was why you found 'this line of questioning' nauseating'. A line of questioning that was very careful and clear that it wasn't a gotcha on Zelensky and never entered even slightly the chucking around accusations of being fash . Anyway, your second reply at least tried to engage and was more helpful.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
True though
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
You don't have to be funny. At least you didn't find it nauseating. Anyway, PMs are open if you want to continue this?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Jesus Christ well sorry that I haven't phrased stuff according to your liking after going to some lengths to provide sources with information on Zelensky's stances on this topic and made it clear that I wasnt trying to have a go at ska or attacking him.
Sorry that I haven't put everything in a 100% perfectly politically correct way, as I've written about I've got friends in Putins Russia which may be becoming an actual fascist regime, I've also not long come out of hospital. I don't have much (or any) patience for this shit atm and should probably leave it there
Sorry that I haven't put everything in a 100% perfectly politically correct way, as I've written about I've got friends in Putins Russia which may be becoming an actual fascist regime, I've also not long come out of hospital. I don't have much (or any) patience for this shit atm and should probably leave it there
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Sorry to hear about you being in hospital and I wish you a speedy recovery. No intention of replying further unless by PM.
Flavour
hang the bankers
To annoy danny la rouge and quote the big lebowski, "You can say what you want about the tenets of national socialism but at least it's an ethos"
I think it's evidence that despite all the other ideological conflicts in recent years (particularly Islamism),in Europe we still in a post-war world; it is still the event which most shapes the nature of geopolitics. Lingering feelings of good will between the UK and Poland, mistrust between France and Italy, the football rivalry that seemingly everyone feels with Germany... and of course the Russian "security concerns" whose legitimacy goes back to 1941. There hasn't been anything since which divided Europe so clearly as fascism. So it's still the reference point (especially for the Russian State, which uses the term in a different way to far-left activists in Germany, the UK, France etc.)
These things can and do last for decades. If you look at a lot of the writing by Communists from the early part of the 20th century, before the rise of Mussolini and Hitler, it's full of figurative references to the French Revolution (Thermidorians, Bonapartists, etc) which had lost much of their relevance, but at least in that sense there was (I imagine) I wider acceptance that these words were being used figuratively and not literally.
In Italy, they differentiate between their own fascism and the German variant by always specifying either "fascismo" or "nazifascismo" -- which is somewhat useful at least when discussing the second world war itself and being able to make a distinction between the fascismo which supported Germany in invading the Soviet Union and the nazifascismo which then invaded Italy itself once fascismo crumbled.
There is definitely a need for terms, as the Pirani article talks about, with Russia's actual position being a new kind of imperialism being practiced by a state with an old-fashioned military mindset and indeed, considerable military resources, but which is economically stunted and reliant on the export of raw materials (and therefore the willingness and ability of its customers to buy those goods).
One of the key differences between Russia and say, Saudi Arabia, is that while both are heavily reliant on the export of fossil fuels for their economic power, the military power of Saudi Arabia is completely imported (to the great delight of UK and US arms manufacturers), while Russia's is domestically produced, and often sort of shit compared to the Western equivalents. Saudi "near-abroad" imperalism in Yemen of course is denounced far less often partly because of the economic benefits of its militarism for UK manufacturers
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I used to get called a Blanquist by the some of the Trots back in the day.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
a wet blanquist?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
hope you're well on the mend if not 100% yet
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
A Trot variety
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Lol 57 fucking varieties
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
An underestimate by most counts I think
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