'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

[ViolentPanda]

TBF, there is.

Zionism is viewed by many as a system of apartheid and racism.

^^^^Here is one of the problems.

The language isn't accurate enough. When people talk about Zionism they invariably mean the particular variant of Zionism that has taken root in Israeli politics, which is more properly called nationalist-Zionism, and aggressive politics that sees a secure and expanded Jewish state of Israel as of primary importance.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes but masquerading traditional anti Semitism as anti Zionism is the new trick.

For example, saying Larry Silverstein was in on the Sept 11th attacks because he's one of the Zionists. The only evidence that's offered that Silverstein is a Zionist is the fact that he's jewish.

TBF, you have to be an ignorant donkey of a person to equate "Jewish" with "Zionist".

 

[8den]

Please someone find the link....

When I read threads like this, I see Jazzz: obviously an intelligent, well-read bloke who sincerely believes what he says, expresses himself without abusing his opponents or losing his temper, and is prepared to stand up for his beliefs in the face of raging tirades of abuse.

post 1143

 

[8den]

TBF, you have to be an ignorant donkey of a person to equate "Jewish" with "Zionist".

TBF the sort of people who do this would be be ranting about the "holohoax" on a different forum.

This thread is a gem btw, I've found trev's defence of his Diana conspiracy theories particularly refreshing (according to Trev anyone who doesn't believe Diana conspiracy theories, is a "establishment whore")

I love a middle aged punk who buys the Express.

 

[Dillinger4]

post 1143

that doesn't seem very outrageous.

 

[8den]

that doesn't seem very outrageous.

I never said it was

There's also

And phildwyer doesn't? Seems to me he is just about the only other person with a genuine interest in the discussion.

Post :1508

 

[kavenism]

Perhaps this is a spurious bump, but does anyone else here think that there is considerable conspiraloon presence within the Occupy movement, to a much greater extent than these people usually venture out? If so this seems to be a bit of a departure for them as they ordinarily shun direct action, viewing it as doing just what THEY want.
David Icke is appearing at Wembley arena next year, a considerable step up from his previous big day out at Brixton academy. His loon factory is now even pumping out kids books.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/David-Truth-Seeker-Timely-Adventure/dp/1463773889/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320597609&sr=1-1
Hmm.. David the Truth Seeker.. catchy. I can’t imagine that name sticking with a five year old but it’s still fucked up.

But anyway even though this seems to have been covered a fair bit before, does anyone actually have a notion as to when this stuff would legitimately become a concern for the organised left. I mean when might the organisation and propagation of this stuff actually be worth taking seriously and organising against? They shun political action and generally just constitute an annoyance, but their stupidity can have effects in the real world even if it’s just at the level of making rational debate a lot harder. And that’s before you even consider the anti-Semitism implicit in a lot of NWO/Illuminati crap. How many people does Icke have to get into a stadium before we get worried?

 

[BigTom]

In Birmingham at least there is a considerable presence of this in the occupy movement, so much so that many activists will not have anything to do with the Birmingham camp.
I'm not sure it's ever really worth organising against. I've tried discussing this stuff with those who believe it and can get nowhere. you can't reason with insanity.
I guess the point would be to try to show others just how wrong it is. Half the time I think the conspiraloons do that all on their own, especially when they go on about flouridation/chem trails being mind control, or the NWO trying to wipe out most of the population.. or of course the shape-shifting reptilian overlords..

 

[Roadkill]

Sadly I do think this conspiraloon shit is gaining some traction. It's mainy impressionistic, but reading comments on newspaper articles on the occupations (not least on the Daily Mail site) I couldn't help but be struck by how many people were talking about the 'New World Order' and how people should read David Icke. Could be some kind of organised trolling campaign I suppose, but I doubt it. It's worrying.

More flippantly, given that many of these people seem to think next year is when the lizards will move into the open*, when the world is the same in twelve months' time as it is now, perhaps they'll start to realise there is no grand conspiracy but simply the workings of class and power, which can be understood and fought without need to resort to fantasies about Freemasons and owls.

(* Some time ago I clicked on a friend of a friend's facebook profile. His political views said: 'New World Order 2012: 9/11 They Did It Themselves.' Well it rhymes, I suppose! But you do see other references to 2012 as some kind of starting date. What the significance of it is I've no idea. Anyone...?)

 

[Superdupastupor]

2012 is the end of the long cycle mayan ( or aztec ) calendar of 15,000 yrs. It has been adopted as the end date for eschatologists that are "non"-religious

eta : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Perhaps this is a spurious bump, but does anyone else here think that there is considerable conspiraloon presence within the Occupy movement, to a much greater extent than these people usually venture out? If so this seems to be a bit of a departure for them as they ordinarily shun direct action, viewing it as doing just what THEY want.
David Icke is appearing at Wembley arena next year, a considerable step up from his previous big day out at Brixton academy. His loon factory is now even pumping out kids books.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/David-Truth-Seeker-Timely-Adventure/dp/1463773889/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320597609&sr=1-1
Hmm.. David the Truth Seeker.. catchy. I can’t imagine that name sticking with a five year old but it’s still fucked up.

But anyway even though this seems to have been covered a fair bit before, does anyone actually have a notion as to when this stuff would legitimately become a concern for the organised left. I mean when might the organisation and propagation of this stuff actually be worth taking seriously and organising against? They shun political action and generally just constitute an annoyance, but their stupidity can have effects in the real world even if it’s just at the level of making rational debate a lot harder. And that’s before you even consider the anti-Semitism implicit in a lot of NWO/Illuminati crap. How many people does Icke have to get into a stadium before we get worried?

The occupations are in public spaces and people can say and do what they like so long as they do not conflict with the law, such as via hate speech.

I still maintain there can be common ground sought and that the left can convert some of the conspiranoids to an overtly anti capitalist viewpoint. This is despite all the people calling me an anti semite apologist loon from one side and an eco nazi MK Ultra dupe from the other.

So, the conspiraloons, for all good and bad points are gaining traction a bit. To be honest, it is nowhere near the level of traction that toxic reactionary and consumerist politics / culture have reached. The real issue for many on the left in this regard is their dismal failure to gain meaningful traction beyond very many of the usual suspects. In the market place of ideas the left's goods still have a severe branding issue. I think we should focus on this rather than prioritising slagging off the other guys.

 

[Pickman's model]

I still maintain there can be common ground sought and that the left can convert some of the conspiranoids to an overtly anti capitalist viewpoint.

i don't think that being anti-capitalist is, on its own and taken in isolation, necessarily a sign of good politics. i hope i need not mention the strasser brothers in this regard.

 

[Blagsta]

Sadly I do think this conspiraloon shit is gaining some traction. It's mainy impressionistic, but reading comments on newspaper articles on the occupations (not least on the Daily Mail site) I couldn't help but be struck by how many people were talking about the 'New World Order' and how people should read David Icke. Could be some kind of organised trolling campaign I suppose, but I doubt it. It's worrying.

More flippantly, given that many of these people seem to think next year is when the lizards will move into the open*, when the world is the same in twelve months' time as it is now, perhaps they'll start to realise there is no grand conspiracy but simply the workings of class and power, which can be understood and fought without need to resort to fantasies about Freemasons and owls.

(* Some time ago I clicked on a friend of a friend's facebook profile. His political views said: 'New World Order 2012: 9/11 They Did It Themselves.' Well it rhymes, I suppose! But you do see other references to 2012 as some kind of starting date. What the significance of it is I've no idea. Anyone...?)

Some bollocks that Terrence McKenna came up with.

 

[Roadkill]

2012 is the end of the long cycle mayan ( or aztec ) calendar of 15,000 yrs. It has been adopted as the end date for eschatologists that are "non"-religious

eta : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon

Oh God, there's loads of the silly buggers.

I wonder what they'll all say when 21 December 2012 turns out to be just another dreary, chilly winter Friday in the middle of a recession....

 

[8ball]

In Birmingham at least there is a considerable presence of this in the occupy movement, so much so that many activists will not have anything to do with the Birmingham camp.

I think the Nottingham camp is going the same way, having been down there today.

 

[kavenism]

Oh God, there's loads of the silly buggers.

I wonder what they'll all say when 21 December 2012 turns out to be just another dreary, chilly winter Friday in the middle of a recession....

I hope 'The End of Days' happens the week before the Olympics. I'd love to see Seb Coes' face, I'd fucking love it!

 

[Superdupastupor]

Oh God, there's loads of the silly buggers.

I wonder what they'll all say when 21 December 2012 turns out to be just another dreary, chilly winter Friday in the middle of a recession....

recalibrations of the calculations is the stock response.

It's not like i'm not pessimistic about the future and y'know the world will end at somepoint, but I guess people are just attracted to the idea of being part of a cosmic scheme.

 

[Pickman's model]

recalibrations of the calculations is the stock response.

It's not like i'm not pessimistic about the future and y'know the world will end at somepoint, but I guess people are just attracted to the idea of being part of a cosmic scheme.

they are part of a cosmic scheme, and with luck they'll be part of another when a large meteorite smacks the earth hopefully incinerating them.

 

[Roadkill]

It's not like i'm not pessimistic about the future and y'know the world will end at somepoint, but I guess people are just attracted to the idea of being part of a cosmic scheme.

Oh aye. Just like that bloke who predicted the rapture a few months ago, then decided he'd just made a small calculation error when it never happened. As you say, some folk like the idea of being part of some greater plan they can't influence. I suppose you could argue that that's the great underlying attraction of faith of all kinds, actually: it doesn't matter what you do and your own actions will change nothing - it will happen anyway, for better or worse. Predestination is a horrible idea really, but it's not hard to see why it has its adherents.

 

[Superdupastupor]

they are part of a cosmic scheme, and with luck they'll be part of another when a large meteorite smacks the earth hopefully incinerating them.

are you talking about humanity??

 

[Pickman's model]

are you talking about humanity??

i wouldn't go so far as to describe conspiraloons as humanity, but we are talking about humans.

 

[Superdupastupor]

.... I suppose you could argue that that's the great underlying attraction of faith of all kinds, actually: it doesn't matter what you do and your own actions will change nothing - it will happen anyway, for better or worse. Predestination is a horrible idea really, but it's not hard to see why it has its adherents.

I think in terms of grand historical terms the social success of religion can be understood as coming from getting people to " sing of the same hymn sheet" - you have you have, and that is how it is

 

[Superdupastupor]

i wouldn't go so far as to describe conspiraloons as humanity, but we are talking about humans.

well they'd all need to be in roughly the same location to be wipped out by death from above........

the "man"free land of IKEopia ??

 

[Pickman's model]

well they'd all need to be in roughly the same location to be wipped out by death from above........

the "man"free land of IKEopia ??

they are part of 'a cosmic scheme': they contain parts of dead stars, for example, and they live in a universe which will die in a few trillion years; while we can differ about the size of the catastrophe which removes them from existence, i hope we can agree that in many important ways conspiraloons do more to foster dissent and strife where there need be neither than contribute towards amity or the furtherance of any important human endeavour.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

is it the case then that, rather than engaging with "truthers" about common ground and trying to win them round on disagreements people are preferring to pack up and bugger off?

"We are the 99%" *

* Excludes people we disagree with.

 

[Roadkill]

I think in terms of grand historical terms the social success of religion can be understood as coming from getting people to " sing of the same hymn sheet" - you have you have, and that is how it is

Yes ... and no. Religion can be politically useful, hence:

The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate.

But it appeals to something rather more primeval than that. it explains the inexplicable - which is why, in the 'enlightened' world at least, the role of god(s) has shrunk as the boundaries of the inexplicable have been pushed back. Nevertheless, much that is inexplicable remains, hence its continuing appeal.

 

[8ball]

"We are the 99%" *

* Excludes people we disagree with.

Shite slogan, anyway.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Shite slogan, anyway.

Yep, only 1% away from 'We are the world, we are the children'

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Shite slogan, anyway.

Agreed. But it seems to have stuck.

 

[8ball]

Yep, only 1% away from 'We are the world, we are the children'

On one of the 'occupy' facebook pages earlier, one of the happy campers (of the 'slightly conspiraloon' persuasion) was referring to the drunken 'sheeple' in the square over Saturday night. I innocently asked whether 'sheeple' was a synonym for 'the 99%'.

Original comment plus replies was gone from the thread after five mins or so.