'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

[frogwoman]

That's an interesting post taffboy. However the majority of conspiracy theories don't focus on the structural / side of capitalism etc, they simply sidetrack the issue by pointing out a load of irrelevant and often extremely racist and offensive crap. When they do pay lip service to "capitalism" it's normally to focus on banks and bankers rather than any sort of coherent analysis. Loads of attention seems to be paid to garish details like the idea that these "rituals" of the elite tend to involve paedophilia and child abuse, or human sacrifice, or mind control, etc etc, rather than analysis as to WHY the world runs the way it is, its just a mixture of factual and made up forms of evil.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Another problem is that 'paranoid lizard gibber' (wonderful phrase which I may steal if that's OK) acts as a fantastic smokescreen for actual conspiracies.

I recall once describing the Gladio false-flag thing to an intelligent but not particularly political friend and he simply assumed I'd gone nuts and bought into a conspiracy theory because a) there was a structural similarity and b) he hadn't heard about the court cases in Italy where all that stuff came out. I've no doubt that the same thing could easily happen to evidence of any contemporary and politically significant actual ruling-class conspiracies for the same reasons.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It's more likely he'll tell me to watch a 45 minute video, after which I'll be none the wiser.

When have I told you to watch a video? Is this the first time you've made something up from zero evidence on the thread?

 

[frogwoman]

Another problem is that 'paranoid lizard gibber' (wonderful phrase which I may steal if that's OK) acts as a fantastic smokescreen for actual conspiracies.

I recall once describing the Gladio false-flag thing to an intelligent but not particularly political friend and he simply assumed I'd gone nuts and bought into a conspiracy theory because a) there was a structural similarity and b) he hadn't heard about the court cases in Italy where all that stuff came out. I've no doubt that the same thing could easily happen to evidence of any contemporary and politically significant actual ruling-class conspiracies for the same reasons.

Yep. This is exactly the thing. People like Icke are a god send to these people (and if you look at the people who promote these kind of conspiracy theories, including pat robertson ffs), they could frequently be classed as being in "the elite" themselves.


It wouldn't surprise me if someone was being paid millions by Mossad or whoever to write this shit. Seriously.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, people are being paid millions by Exxon to come up with climate change conspiracy theories, so I guess it's possible that funding is involved someplace along the line, but to some degree I think it's self-sustaining. Icke clearly makes fuckloads of money from what he does, so no doubt do his US brethren. If I had the stomach for it I'd be tempted to have a go myself, as I reckon I could do a better job and the hours probably aren't all that long.

 

[smokedout]

Well, people are being paid millions by Exxon to come up with climate change conspiracy theories

millions?

source eh

 

[ernestolynch]

millions?

source eh

And Bern was one of the more credible ones, too.

 

[Yossarian]

millions?

source eh

$16 million between 1998 and 2005 according to one account : http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/ExxonMobil-GlobalWarming-tobacco.html
Although Exxon's spending on "climate skepticism" was dwarfed by that of Koch Industries:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j6UBV-TNcMO9trEK-2CB0FfYbOQw

 

[ernestolynch]

And ACT ON CO2 is the result of £15 million of tax payers money given to some toffs in Brighton.

 

[smokedout]

$16 million between 1998 and 2005 according to one account : http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/ExxonMobil-GlobalWarming-tobacco.html
Although Exxon's spending on "climate skepticism" was dwarfed by that of Koch Industries:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j6UBV-TNcMO9trEK-2CB0FfYbOQw

so energy companies give money to right wing thing tanks and scientific organisations

who'd of thunk it

 

[smokedout]

But I'll give a teeny weeny example - that incident 18 months ago where Mandelson and Osborne turn out to have been on a yacht together with a Russian oligarch, A banker (I think) and Karimov's daughter (he is the Ukranian dictator who Craig Murray kicked off about, had people boiled alive) - this is the type of little gaggle who probably tries to stitch things up along the way - all the while Mandelson and Osborne will pretend to be on different "sides". They are both on the same side, the side of the elite.

they are on the side of capitalism i'll grant you that, but just because they went to the same party doesn't really offer much

do you really think they are secretly plotting together to protect 'the elite'

and who are the elite?

 

[William of Walworth]

I won't post screeds on this here and now, and apologise for being OTT in response to your (IMO OTT) accusations against Zeitgeist. But I'll give a teeny weeny example - that incident 18 months ago where Mandelson and Osborne turn out to have been on a yacht together with a Russian oligarch, A banker (I think) and Karimov's daughter (he is the Ukranian dictator who Craig Murray kicked off about, had people boiled alive) -

Islam Karimov was the dictator of Uzbekhistan, not the Ukraine. HTH ...

 

[William of Walworth]

Well, people are being paid millions by Exxon to come up with climate change conspiracy theories

millions?

source eh

And Bern was one of the more credible ones, too.

But on climate change generally, and about Exxon (and other corporate) funding of CC denial 'theories', he is more credible (to anyone objective and sensible, anyway ). The Exxon funding thing has actually been very credibly and reliably documented. Bernie's far better informed about the details of all that than most.

To write climate change denial off as nothing more than a mad conspiracy theory** (a la 9/11 'troof' type theories) while at the same time elevating AGW itself as a conspiritorial scam is scientifically ignorant/contrarian and ignores the actual evidence. Gets the real situation absolutely 180 degrees arse about tit in fact -- see multiple other CC threads for details.

**Personally I'd prefer to avoid the erm 'conspiracy theory' in relation to any aspect of climate change though, just muddies the waters ...

I think Bernie's real point here was that the more obvously insane and fantasy based (lizardesque) conspiracy theories get in the way of real, evidence supported 'conspiracies' (ones that really are corporate/ruling class backed) being properly exposed.

Another problem is that 'paranoid lizard gibber' (wonderful phrase which I may steal if that's OK) acts as a fantastic smokescreen for actual conspiracies.

As I (and Bernie) said, the real point.

 

[Blagsta]

I think Frogwomans thesis is broadly correct, but there's more to my analysis than that to be fair, I count myself as being on the left but a discussion about CTs is far more likely to focus on their angle. Also, the scale of the 2008 banking heist makes the issue more pertinent currently.

There is plenty of room to pitch an anarchist or libertarian perspective at a textbook CTist and swing them round to a less myopic view. Socialism has more of a problem because of general and CT misconcpetions about the "s" word.

Point is, the "banking heist" is a structural problem, it's not 'cos the banks are particularly irresponsible, it's that they can't really behave in many other ways.

 

[Blagsta]

When have I told you to watch a video? Is this the first time you've made something up from zero evidence on the thread?

It's a reference to the usual source of these things, some shite video on You Tube.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

$16 million between 1998 and 2005 according to one account : http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/ExxonMobil-GlobalWarming-tobacco.html
Although Exxon's spending on "climate skepticism" was dwarfed by that of Koch Industries:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j6UBV-TNcMO9trEK-2CB0FfYbOQw

Quite and if you check the appendices of the UCS report you actually get the specific details (thanks to US accounting law) of monies paid by Exxon to assorted PR front-groups and right-wing think-tanks who are actively promoting the idea that thousands of climate scientists are deceiving the public for reasons typically alleged to involve 'socialist' political views and a desire to implement a world government (aka "NWO")

To pick a single example, the Heartland Institute, directly sponsored by Exxon until a couple of years ago, still sponsored by them via intermediate organisations. Can I show that they promote conspiracy theory? You bet I can ...

Here's Lord Monckton's keynote speech from their last conference.

Let me ask you this question--and it is not a rhetorical question, I want to hear your answer loud and clear. Do we want to be governed not by representatives whom we elect and hold to account, but by the technocratic-centralist wannabe-world-government of the IPCC? <snip>

Do we want to see the bed-wetting liars, hucksters, shysters, fraudsters, and racketeers ever-more-extravagantly rewarded with honors and prizes for their ever-more-extravagant falsehoods, fables, and fictions? <snip>

You, in this room, have bravely upheld the truth and the scientific method against all manner of lies, threats, sanctions, personal attacks, and entertaining revisions to your CreepyMedia biographies. Because you have not failed or faltered, the Forces of Darkness are now scuttling back into their lairs, there to snivel in the eternal darkness of utter oblivion and CNN. <snip>

There was no climate crisis. There is no climate crisis. There will be no climate crisis. “Global warming” is not a global crisis. It is a global scientific fraud.

Without you, that blunt truth might have taken far longer to emerge than it has. And delay is fatal. Though lies cannot alter or harm the truth, they can kill our fellow men. The environmental movement is out of control. It is now humankind’s deadliest enemy. In the name of humanity, it must be outlawed.

http://www.heartland.org/full/24881/Great_Is_Truth_and_Mighty_Above_All_Things.html

There's plenty more stirring stuff like that, I urge you to read the entire article as it's absolutely fucking mental in a highly amusing way ...

Or if you prefer video, we have his Lordship expounding similar shit below ...


Now compare his Lordship's theories with those of Alex Jones and David Icke below ...



I think it's quite fair to describe each of them spouting essentially similar conspiracy theory and as I have shown above that at least one of them was spouting it at a Heartland Institute conference, I think my point is proven.

 

[Dillinger4]

Koch Industries are well sinister in my mind.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Ah, interesting new report from Greenpeace on the 20 year campaign to pretend that climate change isn't happening, which as there isn't any science showing that and there hasn't been any science that looked like showing that for a while, increasingly means promoting climate conspiracy theories of the sort linked to in my previous post.

In March 2008, the Heartland Institute organised the first of its climate sceptic conferences in New York, offering $1000 to anyone who wanted to speak at it.

The climate scientists at RealClimate, some of whom were invited, posted a blog entitled ‘What if you held a conference and no (real) scientists came?’ ‘Normal scientific conferences have the goal of discussing ideas and data in order to advance scientific understanding. Not this one. The organisers are surprisingly open about this in their invitation letter to prospective speakers, which states: 'The purpose of the conference is to generate international media attention to the fact that many scientists believe forecasts of rapid warming and catastrophic events are not supported by sound science, and that expensive campaigns to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are not necessary or cost-effective’

RealClimate concluded: ‘So this conference is not aimed at understanding, it is a PR event aimed at generating media reports.’ The conference was attended by hundreds of people but, as Andrew Revkin noted in the New York Times. ‘The meeting was largely framed around science, but after the luncheon, when an organiser made an announcement asking all of the scientists in the large hall to move to the front for a group picture, 19 men did so.’ ABC news’s coverage of the event included an interview with career sceptic Fred Singer, who admitted during the interview that he had once received an unsolicited cheque from ExxonMobil for $10,000.

The story created a storm of rage from the denier blogosphere, with Heartland and the other sponsors of the conference putting enormous pressure on the broadcaster who refused to retract the story. Heartland held two more conferences, in New York and in Washington - and plans another one in Chicago in 2010. None of them have come out with any conclusion other than the premise of the conference they set out to ‘prove’ – that ‘global warming isn’t a crisis/isn’t happening’.

Of the 19 sponsors of the 2008 conference, only five were not Exxon-funded front groups or conservative think tanks running denial campaigns.

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/international/press/reports/dealing-in-doubt.pdf

(the original report is heavily referenced if you want to check the sources the stuff above is based on)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What I think is interesting about this stuff in the general context of conspiracy theories is that it's an absolutely clear case of toxic corporations promoting conspiracy theories to mislead the public.

When we consider the other point I was making on the previous page, about the general usefulness of conspiracy theories as a smokescreen for anti-social activity by corporations and governments, one has to wonder are there any other conspiracy theories that are receiving funding, covert or otherwise?

My own inclination is to believe that Icke, Jones et al are kind of self-sustaining, but happily tolerated by governments and corporations as an essentially harmless distraction away from any actual effective political dissent.

 

[Blagsta]

What I think is interesting about this stuff in the general context of conspiracy theories is that it's an absolutely clear case of toxic corporations promoting conspiracy theories to mislead the public.

When we consider the other point I was making on the previous page, about the general usefulness of conspiracy theories as a smokescreen for anti-social activity by corporations and governments, one has to wonder are there any other conspiracy theories that are receiving funding, covert or otherwise?

My own inclination is to believe that Icke, Jones et al are kind of self-sustaining, but happily tolerated by governments and corporations as an essentially harmless distraction away from any actual effective political dissent.

^
this

Although I do wonder of the CIA co-intelpro programme still exists.

 

[elbows]

Well its certainly one of the battlefields in the complex information wars that take place today. Different sorts of people and institutions will be able to harness such things to their advantage sometimes, other times particular rumours & their promoters could be seen as more of a threat. Sometimes a state may promote a rumour about another country that would be written off as a conspiracy theory if it was about our country, sometimes it will actually be true, othertimes a lie with specific intent. Sometimes its easy to unweave the web and sometimes it isnt. And there are so many belief systems other than those which we label conspiracy theories, whether extreme or not, that can be manipulated to an extent by a variety of players.

Its probably slightly easier to untangle historical examples, for example I wonder what some theories about the USA could have been part of soviet propaganda in the past, though as its pre-internet I dont have any potential examples to hand.

I would expect that some things are tolerated now because the stakes are not always that high. In times where there was more unrest, at home & between nations, we might expect some peddlars of irresponsible rumour to face greater pressure to stop. I would guess that there may have been some concern in the UK about certain conspiracy theories undermining the war on terror, or even helping the enemy, and on a broader level Rumsfeld & others since have complained about the way media audiences are being fragmented, 'a loss of quality news', the 24 news cycle and the reduced effectiveness of a valuable weapon in the battle for hearts and minds.

 

[William of Walworth]

Excellent posts Mr Gunther ..

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, I wasn't going to say stuff like that if I couldn't back it up. Thanks though WW.

 

[teqniq]

Good stuff.

 

[Meltingpot]

Chris French is a dude. He was my ex's psychology tutor, and he was excellent at debunking stuff...very funny man too...

'Fraid I'm not a member of his fan club, though I respect the work he does.

He marked my work at uni, when he was a postgrad and I an undergrad (Leicester, late '70s). He was notorious for his rude and insulting comments - one girl (Pam, are you posting here?) put her essay up on the notice board to say his comments made her feel like she'd just been run over by a No. 10 bus and gave the impression that he thought doing prac writeups only took 10 minutes.

 

[William of Walworth]

Here's a real babbling conspiraloon candidate, very fringe though. In Totnes.

Stephen Hopwood, another independent candidate, does have many axes to grind. A complementary medicine practitioner, his literature declares: "I will be standing on the single issue of Truth." (His capital letter.)

"Only independents can truly represent the people," he says. "Any politician signed up to a party by definition has greater allegiance to the party and the whip rather than the people. If people want democracy they have to vote for an independent, otherwise you get party whips and party politics and the influence of the bankers that dictate party policy."

As he talks on the balcony of his home on the edge of Dartmoor, the MI5 renegade David Shayler wanders out. It turns out he is helping Hopwood's campaign. Local issues are not foremost in either man's mind – rather, the "truth" about bankers, globalisation, 9/11 and the assassination of JFK.

Vote for the Troof, Devonians ....

 

[chazegee]

I've got to say, Noam Chomsky's take on the 9/11 has pretty much shut my paranoid brain up.

They say we don't respect our elders any more, but that's not really true, it's just that we've only got one elder for about a billion people.

 

[William of Walworth]

Links's broken I think chazegee ...

 

[TitanSound]

Link fixed

 

[sihhi]

Anti-semitism among pro-Ickers discussing the Labour Party leadership election.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116711

What proportion of 'conspiraloons' in Britain are antisemitic?