Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Conspiraloon Pwnage: Back of the net!

mmm.

So there is no space in academia for an outrageous premise?

Well poor old Galileo. He came out with the outrageous statement that the Earth went round the Sun. This was absolute heresy against the prevailing wisdom. We can guess it was certainly against the aims and the objectives of the University of Pisa. The "evidence" he offered was his telescope. Rubbish! He was accused of painting the stars on the lens. The authorities were so outraged they took him down to the dungeons where he was "shown the instruments" of torture. Even worse, his wife scolded him for putting his pension at risk and his daughter's fiancee broke off the engagement.

Bye the bye, wasn't Chomsky involved with defending a French academic holocaust-denier back in the '80's?
 
mmm.

So there is no space in academia for an outrageous premise?

Well poor old Galileo. He came out with the outrageous statement that the Earth went round the Sun. This was absolute heresy against the prevailing wisdom. We can guess it was certainly against the aims and the objectives of the University of Pisa. The "evidence" he offered was his telescope. Rubbish! He was accused of painting the stars on the lens. The authorities were so outraged they took him down to the dungeons where he was "shown the instruments" of torture. Even worse, his wife scolded him for putting his pension at risk and his daughter's fiancee broke off the engagement.

Bye the bye, wasn't Chomsky involved with defending a French academic holocaust-denier back in the '80's?

NK is no Galileo. Urban 75 has no Papal authority, let alone any instruments of torture. The Earth does go around the Sun. The holocaust isn't a myth. Apart from that, the analogy in your post makes perfect sense.

Louis MacNeice
 
Not sure, but I think forensic science has moved on since Galileo, Frampton.

Unless you think that the forensic study refuting the claims of those people that NK still chooses* to prefer counts for nought?



*Cos don't forget, it's not his area even though it may seem like it is.
 
So there is no space in academia for an outrageous premise?
Of course there is. However, there is no space for stating it as truth and quoting heavily selected evidence to support it. Any academic would be sacked for blatantly distorting the evidence, and many have been (many more should have been, but still...).

I've already posted on this thread about Kollerstrom's lack of scientific rigour. His arguments and the evidence they're based on have been comprehensively debunked in a series of very thorough publications. A doctor publishing a paper of that quality would be in danger of getting struck off (much like Andrew Wakefield almost certainly will be shortly when his case concludes at the GMC), scientists would end up in disciplinary proceedings at their universities and in front of their professional bodies and would likely not be employed in the academic sector again.
 
Christ, what a mealy mouthed apologist and load of bollocks.

As far as I'm aware Galileo didn't spend a disproportionate amount of time trying to deny comparatively recent history, instead prefering to employ his time more productively. Nor did he make sure that he everyone was aware of his academic credentials and the organisation he was linked to. Nor did Galileo use his academic credentials in one area to try and give weight to his more controversial musings - in Kollerstrom's case he typically wrote about astronomy for UCL.

Outrageous premise my arse. Hardly as though the holocaust hasn't been denied in the past, nor that the issues haven't been raised. Trying to compare Kollerstrom to Galileo makes you appear the worst kind of cunt.
 
mmm.

So there is no space in academia for an outrageous premise?

Well poor old Galileo. He came out with the outrageous statement that the Earth went round the Sun. This was absolute heresy against the prevailing wisdom. We can guess it was certainly against the aims and the objectives of the University of Pisa. The "evidence" he offered was his telescope. Rubbish! He was accused of painting the stars on the lens. The authorities were so outraged they took him down to the dungeons where he was "shown the instruments" of torture. Even worse, his wife scolded him for putting his pension at risk and his daughter's fiancee broke off the engagement.

Bye the bye, wasn't Chomsky involved with defending a French academic holocaust-denier back in the '80's?

Chomsky defended Faurisson's right to free speech as do I - Im Jewish but I don't believe holocaust denial should be banned, just that it should not be treated seriously or given a priveleged platform, and that those who continue to pedal such vile theories have the right to face the consequence of their actions, It does not mean that he endorsed any of the contents of Faurisson's books. He did NOT.

And in any case I dont agree with everything Chomsky says. Never have. Does the fact that he says something somehow make it more true or more worth listening to?

Nobody is saying that Kollerstrom should be jailed for what he believes. But you believe something you face the consequences. He published his work under his own name and used his PhD to bolster his arguments.

I also have a few problems with the outcome and I'm uncomfortable with the fact that some people seem to be celebrating this (not you BK as after what you went through you are perfectly entitled to).

Comparing holocaust denial to Galileo's theory, a man who suffered, was imprisoned and died for his discoveries is utterly, utterly contemptible.

holocaust denial is not some radical theory which goes against what "they" want you to believe.

Quite the opposite.

I have "doubts" about 9/11 and I think serious questions need to be asked about how much was known before the attacks.

But this is not the same as denying the holocaust, believing in a Jewish conspiracy to decieve the world. Not the same. As I wrote here and here there are many victims of the holocaust who people in positions of power would prefer that people did not remember.

It is my belief that the numbers of deaths from the holocaust is UNDERESTIMATED.

More gypsies died, as a proportion of the pre-war population, than the Jews but hardly anything is said about it. Forced sterelisation programmes were being imposed in some countries in Eastern Europe until the fucking 1980s :mad:

Admitting that the gypsies were a deliberate target of extermination by the Nazis would mean those Eastern European governments admitting that what THEY were doing was wrong!

But its all a conspiracy isnt it? It was all a hoax, dreamed up by a "filthy people who lie a lot", right?

Whose purposes does it suit to deny that gypsies and serbs were ever targetted? why make up a lie that the ustasha were really a brave group of fighters defending croatia against the "evil" serbs? why deny that hundreds of Jews from the Channel Islands, occupied by the Nazis during the war, were ever killed? that anthony eden and the british government during the war sent jews back to their deaths in germany?? that there was anything dodgy about the way companies such as IBM and IG Farben behaved during the war, or the catholic church for that matter???

Think about it. think for fucks sake!! :(

What possible motivation could someone have in promoting such lies? Why?

It isnt people who want to expose government cover ups is it? would anyone who was seriously interested in uncovering the truth behind historical events and what we are told in the media want to endorse this sanatised version of WWII?
 
I also have a few problems with the outcome and I'm uncomfortable with the fact that some people seem to be celebrating this (not you BK as after what you went through you are perfectly entitled to).
I agree with this. I've been harrassed by the Zio-nationalist lobby through my university, as have a lot of others and the tactic does make me uncomfortable. I wouldn't support his sacking if his research was rigorous and any dispute about the conclusions based on legitimate differences in interpretation.

But they're not. The theories he's expounding have been comprehensively debunked - even the original authors he quotes no longer make the claims he does. He's lying or incompetent or both. That's a sackable offence regardless of the subject matter.
 
I agree with this. I've been harrassed by the Zio-nationalist lobby through my university, as have a lot of others and the tactic does make me uncomfortable. I wouldn't support his sacking if his research was rigorous and any dispute about the conclusions based on legitimate differences in interpretation.

But they're not. The theories he's expounding have been comprehensively debunked - even the original authors he quotes no longer make the claims he does. He's lying or incompetent or both. That's a sackable offence regardless of the subject matter.

Good post. Im not gonna celebrate it for the reasons you said but on the other hand I am fucked if I have sympathy for him.
 
Good post. Im not gonna celebrate it for the reasons you said but on the other hand I am fucked if I have sympathy for him.
Good post you mate (the earlier one). Holocaust denial plays a huge role in minimising debate and education about the totality of what happened and why. You illustrate it so well.
 
Good post you mate (the earlier one). Holocaust denial plays a huge role in minimising debate and education about the totality of what happened and why. You illustrate it so well.

Cheers mate. :) and yep, definitely agree there 100%
 
Hey, Lighten up.

I am no apologist for this guy nor would I have the impertinence to trivialise the holocaust.

My analogy is solely in the reaction to Galileo's blasphemous premise. Galileo became rapidly aware that if he continued promoting this heresy then he would face serious consequences. And he did retract his premise and the resulting lack of academic freedom ensured that the enlightenment transfered its interests far away from Italy.

Were I a student within a university and some dude stood up saying the Boer War haed nothing to do with colonialism and was in fact fought between Lizards then I suppose at first I'd be intrigued. His premise would certainly put a different gloss on turn-of-the-century British history but I don't think I'd lose much sleep over it.
 
Hey, Lighten up.

I am no apologist for this guy nor would I have the impertinence to trivialise the holocaust.

My analogy is solely in the reaction to Galileo's blasphemous premise. Galileo became rapidly aware that if he continued promoting this heresy then he would face serious consequences. And he did retract his premise and the resulting lack of academic freedom ensured that the enlightenment transfered its interests far away from Italy.

Were I a student within a university and some dude stood up saying the Boer War haed nothing to do with colonialism and was in fact fought between Lizards then I suppose at first I'd be intrigued. His premise would certainly put a different gloss on turn-of-the-century British history but I don't think I'd lose much sleep over it.

That'd be fine if you'd looked at Kollerstrom's work and concluded that he had a point worth pursuing. But you haven't and he doesn't. There's no basis for your argument in this particular case. It's got nothing to do with "heresy" and everything to do with outright lies. It is a sackable offence for an academic to indulge in that kind of behaviour.
 
If NK had stood and said the Lizards killed all those Jews, then people would have done precisely what they do to all these nutjobs - point and laugh.

What he said was that no Jews were gassed.

As well as harass 7/7 survivors.

On the basis of shit 'evidence' dressed up in "look I have a PHD!".

Can't believe people are whining about free speech, doesn't come into it!
 
Hey, Lighten up.

I am no apologist for this guy nor would I have the impertinence to trivialise the holocaust.

My analogy is solely in the reaction to Galileo's blasphemous premise. Galileo became rapidly aware that if he continued promoting this heresy then he would face serious consequences. And he did retract his premise and the resulting lack of academic freedom ensured that the enlightenment transfered its interests far away from Italy.

Were I a student within a university and some dude stood up saying the Boer War haed nothing to do with colonialism and was in fact fought between Lizards then I suppose at first I'd be intrigued. His premise would certainly put a different gloss on turn-of-the-century British history but I don't think I'd lose much sleep over it.

Its not ridiculous though is it.

What harm does your lizard theory do? None.

This shit hurts real people. It has hurt real people and will continue to do so.
 
My analogy is solely in the reaction to Galileo's blasphemous premise. Galileo became rapidly aware that if he continued promoting this heresy then he would face serious consequences. And he did retract his premise and the resulting lack of academic freedom ensured that the enlightenment transfered its interests far away from Italy.
The "impertinence" to trivialise the holocaust, eh?

"blasphemous"? :rolleyes: :hmm:

Thats an interesting use of terminology, to say the least, mate.
 
The "impertinence" to trivialise the holocaust, eh?

"blasphemous"? :rolleyes: :hmm:

Thats an interesting use of terminology, to say the least, mate.
Indeed. The Holocaust is an article of faith, not a historical fact - didn't you know?
 
Were I a student within a university and some dude stood up saying the Boer War haed nothing to do with colonialism and was in fact fought between Lizards then I suppose at first I'd be intrigued. His premise would certainly put a different gloss on turn-of-the-century British history but I don't think I'd lose much sleep over it.

I fucking would. I'd be thinking 'OMFG what kind of POS institution have I enrolled at' and 'I'm going to see the fucking Dean about this fuckwit who's trying to saotage my degree'
 
gosling's latest ramblings
Nick is a prominent 9/11 Truther who has done several public talks on the subject.

I will be urging the acting chair of UK 9/11 Truth to make a public statement on this unforunate occurance.

Please do bear in mind that Nick may decide to take legal proceedings against UCL and/or Ms. North.
 
In relation to Galileo, blasphemous is about right - for the time.
It was blasphemous in his time, but that's not the point froggy was making.

Using the term in that context suggests that the writer views belief that the Holocaust happened as akin to religious faith. Holocaust denial becomes "blasphemy" instead of revisionism. It's an invalid comparison to start with, but the use of loaded terminology makes it considerably worse.
 
gosling's latest ramblings

Nick is a prominent 9/11 Truther who has done several public talks on the subject.

I will be urging the acting chair of UK 9/11 Truth to make a public statement on this unforunate occurance.

Please do bear in mind that Nick may decide to take legal proceedings against UCL and/or Ms. North.

He wont, but I would love to see him make a twat of himself in court the way David Irving did.
 
It was blasphemous in his time, but that's not the point froggy was making.

Using the term in that context suggests that the writer views belief that the Holocaust happened as akin to religious faith. Holocaust denial becomes "blasphemy" instead of revisionism. It's an invalid comparison to start with, but the use of loaded terminology makes it considerably worse.

Yep and the term "holocaustianity" is frequently used by fash to suggest that believing that the holocaust happened is simply "just a belief"...
 
He wont, but I would love to see him make a twat of himself in court the way David Irving did.

It would be brilliant. They'd have to represent themselves though - nobody would take that case. "You are accused of libel, Ms Badger Kitten, on account of having stated that somebody was denying that the Holocaust happened when they denied that the Holocaust happened. Mr UCL Bloke is also a co-defendant on account of discretionarily denying my client a discretionary post."
 
It would be brilliant. They'd have to represent themselves though - nobody would take that case. "You are accused of libel, Ms Badger Kitten, on account of having stated that somebody was denying that the Holocaust happened when they denied that the Holocaust happened. Mr UCL Bloke is also a co-defendant on account of discretionarily denying my client a discretionary post."

:D
 
Actually, I was wondering where Mr Larry O'Hara had gotten to recently, but a look at the nineeleven boards seems to show that he has been giving the loons what for. Good show sir! They don't like it up 'em! Etc.
 
He wont, but I would love to see him make a twat of himself in court the way David Irving did.

Oh, if only...

At least Irving had a reasonably solid background in the historical minutiae deniers employ to nibble away at the edges of the normative account-- not that it did him a lot of good.

Given the broad, ill-considered pronouncements Kollerstrom's on record as having made, were he made to defend them in court, he'd be laughed out-- and not just by an impartial justice, but by the general public in the peanut gallery and people only vaguely acquainted with the subject reading about it in the press.
 
It would be brilliant. They'd have to represent themselves though - nobody would take that case. "You are accused of libel, Ms Badger Kitten, on account of having stated that somebody was denying that the Holocaust happened when they denied that the Holocaust happened. Mr UCL Bloke is also a co-defendant on account of discretionarily denying my client a discretionary post."


It would be hysterical. Especially as I have screen grabs of him publicly calling my book a work of fiction, calling me a liar, and especially as I can produce 10 witnesses and a film crew who filmed him heckling and barracking me at a public meeting ( film that may be passed to the BBC, originally taped for Taking Liberties).

And now he wants to have a go in court? On what grounds, pray?

What about free speech, eh? Eh, Nick? Eh, loons?:D:D

*rolls on floor*
 
Back
Top Bottom