beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Can't wait to see this documentary 
Conspiraloon Pwnage: Back of the net!
- Thread starter Badger Kitten
- Start date
Bet you its just a zionist plot to conceal the truth...
Yep, nice one BK...
Btw, anyone see AQ deny that 9/11 was a Zionist plot and was all their own work.
Some comments because I thought the extended thread was fascinating.
It was too fast and too long. Difficult to join in if you are away from a computer during a working day.
Some of the slagging-off was better suited to (the morale-sapping) libcom site.
It was done mostly in either/or absolutes. You were either with it or against it.
I think my own and some other posters were partly right and partly wrong.
I do still believe that we need spaces where the outrageous can be put forward as a challenge to accepted understanding. It seems to me that academia is the one space where this is still possible. (OK. I gather now that he was pushing these ideas outside of a university classroom and that's a different ball game altogether).
The exchange also throws up other irelevant ssues about free speech, freedom, moral equivalence and how we deal with the things we exclude.
It was too fast and too long. Difficult to join in if you are away from a computer during a working day.
Some of the slagging-off was better suited to (the morale-sapping) libcom site.
It was done mostly in either/or absolutes. You were either with it or against it.
I think my own and some other posters were partly right and partly wrong.
I do still believe that we need spaces where the outrageous can be put forward as a challenge to accepted understanding. It seems to me that academia is the one space where this is still possible. (OK. I gather now that he was pushing these ideas outside of a university classroom and that's a different ball game altogether).
The exchange also throws up other irelevant ssues about free speech, freedom, moral equivalence and how we deal with the things we exclude.
Christ. Are people still wanking on about free speech?
Kollerstrom's free to say what he wants. Just not when he's meant to be a representative/honoury research fellow of an academic institution.
I do, however, doff my hat to you in admitting that they are 'irelevant ssues' (sic)
Kollerstrom's free to say what he wants. Just not when he's meant to be a representative/honoury research fellow of an academic institution.
I do, however, doff my hat to you in admitting that they are 'irelevant ssues' (sic)
How can you be pro holocaust denial...?
You're free to post up any "outrageous" theory you want. It will be discussed and if it doesn't (as 95 % things don't) stand up it scrutiny then it has a good chance of being mocked.
(Ie, just how things are done in the real world, and in academia...)
innit
c'mon, little life giver
There have to be some limits on free speech. I don't believe people should have the freedom to deny the holocaust - do you, really?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
But he was free to deny the holocaust. And we were free to respond to that.
I think our response was far more effective than having denied him the right to talk about it in the first place.
It's about consequences.
For me, the only real issue was the method and proportionality of the response.
People have the freedom to deny the holocaust, but if they persist in doing so against over-whelming evidence they should expect the consequences. Ie, losing their job if they are expected to be open minded.
mauvais
on reddit or something
I don't see what the argument is. He is still free to be a holocaust denying cunt. He just isn't free to do it under a particular organisation's umbrella.
I could say all sorts of things that would bring my employer into disrepute yet not break any law, but I'd still be fired for it. That's basically what's happened to him.
I could say all sorts of things that would bring my employer into disrepute yet not break any law, but I'd still be fired for it. That's basically what's happened to him.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
To be honest, I think the outcome is just about perfect. He had an 'honourary' position - which he has now lost because of his lack of honour.
As I've said on the longer thread, I might have had a slight problem if the strategy had been primarily about getting him sacked, but it hasn't been. Its more important and relevant to give his views the severest kicking - and indeed to harrass him personally if he speaks at meetings and the like i.e. exposure, pure and simple. I'd prefer that anyday to him just losing his income. But that hasn't happened - his platform has got smaller rather than his bank balance. My only reservation was if this had become a 'lets get him sacked' thing first and foremost. It hasn't been and, anyway, him losing this post as a consequence of the wider exposure isn't a problem. Its his fault.
As I've said on the longer thread, I might have had a slight problem if the strategy had been primarily about getting him sacked, but it hasn't been. Its more important and relevant to give his views the severest kicking - and indeed to harrass him personally if he speaks at meetings and the like i.e. exposure, pure and simple. I'd prefer that anyday to him just losing his income. But that hasn't happened - his platform has got smaller rather than his bank balance. My only reservation was if this had become a 'lets get him sacked' thing first and foremost. It hasn't been and, anyway, him losing this post as a consequence of the wider exposure isn't a problem. Its his fault.
Meltingpot
Living in our pools we soon forget about the sea
Why not? (I'm a holocaust believer btw). I've seen someone deny Stalin's Great Terror on another board (again, which I believe in), so why should the Holocaust be any different?
I do think that if someone consistently spouts discredited arguments that brand a whole class of people as liars (which holocaust denial does) then they should be sued for libel, but that's a different thing from making it a criminal issue, which is wrong and worryingly totalitarian in my view.
As for Kollerstrom, he shouldn't have been sacked as long as he made it clear that he was speaking as a private individual and not as a member of UCL. It's a bad thing when people can be sacked for expressing views which go against the grain of established opinion.
Badger Kitten
oof
He wasn't sacked.
His honourary fellowship was removed, because
UCL has been made aware of views expressed by Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom, an Honorary Research Fellow in UCL Science & Technology Studies.
The position of Honorary Research Fellow is a privilege bestowed by departments within UCL on researchers with whom it wishes to have an association. It is not an employed position.
The views expressed by Dr Kollerstrom are diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of UCL, such that we wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.
We therefore have no choice but to terminate Dr Kollerstrom’s Honorary Research Fellowship with immediate effect
which is fair enough.
His honourary fellowship was removed, because
UCL has been made aware of views expressed by Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom, an Honorary Research Fellow in UCL Science & Technology Studies.
The position of Honorary Research Fellow is a privilege bestowed by departments within UCL on researchers with whom it wishes to have an association. It is not an employed position.
The views expressed by Dr Kollerstrom are diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of UCL, such that we wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.
We therefore have no choice but to terminate Dr Kollerstrom’s Honorary Research Fellowship with immediate effect
which is fair enough.
Badger Kitten
oof
And it is not a criminal issue as nobody has been arrested. I think 11 countries have Holocaust denial laws similar to our hate speech laws, but the UK doesn't.
He had an honorary position, the Uni decided they wanted no association with him or his views, so they decided to revoke their honourary position, and did so.
He had an honorary position, the Uni decided they wanted no association with him or his views, so they decided to revoke their honourary position, and did so.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
I feel surprisingly mixed about this outcome.
Not having followed every post of the thread in question, is it suggested Nicholas Kollerstrom's personal views and his professional life overlapped (it's not apparent given his 'Science & Technology' orientated job title) ?
Not having followed every post of the thread in question, is it suggested Nicholas Kollerstrom's personal views and his professional life overlapped (it's not apparent given his 'Science & Technology' orientated job title) ?
Badger Kitten
oof
He posted as Nicholas Kollerstrom, PhD.
Not under a pseudonym.
He has repellent Holocaust-denying views, as well as conspiracy theory views about 9/11 and 7/7 which also come back to Israel/Jews being behind it all.
He behaves in public in a way that is pretty obnoxious, heckling and harassing people - including people bombed on 7/7.
His views were discussed and the Uni informed, they decided that UCL is ''diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of UCL, such that UCL wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.''
That's their decision and a fair one; you can see why with Europe's largest Holocaust studies unit they are not keen to honour a Holocaust denying antisemite as a research fellow and host his work on their website, so anyone googling ''Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom, PhD'' ( as he signs himself when writing about the Holocaust) finds him listed at UCL on the first page of google
Not under a pseudonym.
He has repellent Holocaust-denying views, as well as conspiracy theory views about 9/11 and 7/7 which also come back to Israel/Jews being behind it all.
He behaves in public in a way that is pretty obnoxious, heckling and harassing people - including people bombed on 7/7.
His views were discussed and the Uni informed, they decided that UCL is ''diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of UCL, such that UCL wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.''
That's their decision and a fair one; you can see why with Europe's largest Holocaust studies unit they are not keen to honour a Holocaust denying antisemite as a research fellow and host his work on their website, so anyone googling ''Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom, PhD'' ( as he signs himself when writing about the Holocaust) finds him listed at UCL on the first page of google
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Exactly. His right to free speech extends precisely as far as my right to question what he says does.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
BK - But you haven't said his personal views and professional life overlapped, so I presume they didn't?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's the old equation of "you have the right to call me a Jew bastard, I have the right to punch your nose". One should always expect an equal and opposite reaction to one's actions.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
They did. IIRC from the big "conspiraloon" thread, he used his UCL web-space, and his UCL fellowship, to promote his shit.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
You'll understand this isn't quite the confirmation I was asking for.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm not prepared to pile through 1200+ posts on a thread merely to satisfy your curiosity. If you're that interested, do so yourself.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Fear not, we'll probably manage.
innit
c'mon, little life giver
Well, for a start, they can't be sued for libel against a large class of people, that's not a cause of action in UK law (can only bring defamation claim against an individual or small group)
And imo freedom of expression has to be limited when that expression hurts other people, that's just what I believe. I don't believe I have the right to incite hatred against you (holocaust denial is a hair's breadth from incital of racial hatred).
As a UCL alum I'm very glad they don't want to associate with him, as previously said he was using that association to give himself credibility and it brings the university into disrepute if they overlook that.
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