I wasn't talking about the 'left', I was wondering if Marx's theory of alienation still stood as a justification of why 'communism' is better than capitalism.
Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
I wasn't talking about the 'left', I was wondering if Marx's theory of alienation still stood as a justification of why 'communism' is better than capitalism.
We know that, its been done to death over the years, is there any more to say about it?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Most things are better than capitalism
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
New to Urban75?
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
It's still interesting.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
^^^ This a fucking 1000 times this! ^^^
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Just be glad it hasn’t meandered into the relative size of wagon wheels over time.
Yet.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Never ever use the term Bo-bos again please. ..
Was that ironic?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
e) banquet
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
Just don’t put too much white pepper on whatever you call your meal
isvicthere?
a.k.a. floppybollocks
On this particular thread, which you are contributing to, it appears there is.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
G) girl dinner
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Terrible news from the recent British Social Attitides Survey
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Looking at their time series there does appear to have been a significant shift to a firming up of certainty of respondents' perception of their own class over the last decade. Seemingly marking the end of 3 decades of relatively high levels of belief in "classlessness".
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Kenan Malik on class and culture.
Malik shows how the narrative spun by the new right commentariat and sections of PMC that portray the working class as socially illiberal are simply wrong. Also interesting is the growing link between sense of class and cultural signifiers:
www.theguardian.com
Malik shows how the narrative spun by the new right commentariat and sections of PMC that portray the working class as socially illiberal are simply wrong. Also interesting is the growing link between sense of class and cultural signifiers:
Forty years ago, class defined us in Britain. Now it’s we who define our class | Kenan Malik
More Britons call themselves working class, but they are also increasingly liberal, a new survey reveals
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
It's this type of stuff that shows - that despite your claims - you really do not understand Marx, or for that matter socialism.
Orthodox Marxists (or "Marxists" if one prefers) certainly do not argue any such thing, the whole 'orthodox' interpretation of the stages of production shows that the above is absolute baloney.
Even those of us socialists that don't subscribe to the Marxist stages of production (at least in the deterministic form it is often presented as) recognise that the productive power of workers under capitalism has (via the actions of workers) obtained benefits for producing classes.
You've not actually moved on in the best part of 20 years - you are still stuck on the the fact that socialists use exploitation in a manner you don't like.
Rimbaud - thanks for the post. I'm too knackered after the last couple of weeks to respond now but will try to get around to it some time.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
m) appetite
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There's nothing in your post about health. About the great variation in life expectancy throughout the country and by class. The way in which a vast number of children in this country are brought up in poverty. The use of food banks soaring over the past 13 years. You say 3-5% of the population use them. Do you think we've reached peak use of food banks? Do you think their use only affects the part of the population who get food from them?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
OK but then you are not a socialist.
Class struggle is not some optional extra to socialism, it is the key, the foundation what the whole philosophy is built on (at least in the non-utopian form). Socialists can have different views about the state, about social values, about methods of organising, tactics, history, etc.
But key to socialism is class struggle and the role and importance of the working class, that cannot be removed.
Populism proposes to organise on the basis of people, rather than class. I'm not without any sympathy for populism, I think it can be a genuine show of working class power, and has too often been dismissed by some. But it is not socialism. Moreover there are two key points that even left populism has to come up against.
First, what happens with the class struggle really does hit and the differing interests of workers and bosses cannot be papered over? Second, the working class is central to socialism not because it is better or morally right but because it operates in a key place in capitalism, while also provides the means of destroying it. You've called yourself an anti-capitalist, by what vehicle (if not the working class) are you proposing as a route of escaping capitalism?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Kenan Malik on class and culture.
Malik shows how the narrative spun by the new right commentariat and sections of PMC that portray the working class as socially illiberal are simply wrong. Also interesting is the growing link between sense of class and cultural signifiers:
Forty years ago, class defined us in Britain. Now it’s we who define our class | Kenan Malik
More Britons call themselves working class, but they are also increasingly liberal, a new survey reveals
I think this paragraph is very pertinent to the matters of this thread:
Kenan Malik said:
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Fuck me, who made you the Socialism police?
I mean, I don't see eye to eye with ska invita on many (most?) matters of policy but they have more commitment to socialism in their little finger than you appear to have in your entire exclusionary body...
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
I'd probably say it's not socialism in any meaningful sense. After all, socialism that doesn't connect to class, and how to get rid of class, is pretty meaningless.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
if ska invita is arguing for a left populism, i.e. political organising on the basis of 'the people' (however that is defined) then by definition he is arguing against socialism. This is not some moral judgement it is a simple statement about two different political philosophies.
Left populism is not socialism, it may share some political ideals, organising and tactics. But class struggle is integral to socialism and (left) populism splits from socialism at that point.
As for exclusionary, that's rich coming from someone calling people Tory supporters because they may chose not to vote for an anti-worker, racist party that just happens to wear red.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Well that does support the Tory party in the hear and now. And whilst it probably shouldn’t be it is true whether you like it or not.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
No it doesn't, that's just you positing the same shortsighted TINA lesser evilism as ever with an additional victim-blaming guilt trip. "You're a bad person if you don't vote for these purple-tie Tories" doesn't suggest you're must of an authority to be declaring who's socialist, either.
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A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
There is no doubt it does support the Tory Party and will in 2024/5. You wish it didn’t, I really really wish it didn’t.
I’d be interested in reading coherent argument about how it doesn’t support the Tory party. Not a statement that hearing this truth makes you feel uncomfortable.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
More seriously, it's not the anarchists who have created this issue that you're now merrily throwing in our faces. You're wanking on about how our abstaining is so very damaging (all several thousand of us, more usually living in solid Labour seats), but we've been consistently campaigning to push the public away from conservative politics for decades and have worked damn hard at it no matter the weather.
You know who's done more to get Toryism elected than us? You. Because every single time Labour's proposed a right-wing ticket you've pulled this shit. That "anyone but" behaviour provided cover for Blair, Brown, and now Starmer. And their victories were steps along the road to Cameron, Bojo and Sunak. And not just in Britain, either. In France, Italy, Spain, Greece - look how it's turning out. That's not our fault, the political non-voters of Europe didn't make the Eruopean public reject technocrat centrism. These parties have relied on "anything but" for a long time now and it was never going to cover for their exploitation of the working classes forever, it was always a fantasy.
Your ilk have done more to create modern hard-right Toryism than than most Tories, frankly, let alone the anarchists.
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