Men on 1970s pro-paedophile list could still work with children today

[Fozzie Bear]

I'd never heard of NAMBLA until I started reading Maximum Rock n Roll (the US punk fanzine-bible) in the early 90s, where they seemed to get mentioned every now and then. I don't recall outright support *, and most were vehemently opposed to everything they stood for, but there was a strain of 'why shouldn't they be given free speech', 'don't accept society's conditioning' anarcho-libertarian apologism that I just found baffling as well as appalling.

* Although those who also read MRR will probably recall Mykel Board. I'm amazed to see that he's still alive and walking freely.

There was quite a lot of this stuff sloshing about in US anarchist circles in the 1990s. "Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed" was well disposed to "the discussion" and had pretty good distribution. Hakim Bey's "TAZ" book was a counter culture hit, before people knew much more about him. Paedophilia and American anarchism - the other side of Hakim Bey my memory is that this was not really tolerated in the UK anarchist movement by this point?

Ironically most people heard of NAMBLA via the South Park episode...

 

[maomao]

There was quite a lot of this stuff sloshing about in US anarchist circles in the 1990s. "Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed" was well disposed to "the discussion" and had pretty good distribution. Hakim Bey's "TAZ" book was a counter culture hit, before people knew much more about him. Paedophilia and American anarchism - the other side of Hakim Bey my memory is that this was not really tolerated in the UK anarchist movement by this point?

Ironically most people heard of NAMBLA via the South Park episode...

I remember the letters page of Maximum Rock and Roll (well-known hardcore fanzine) had a lot of pro paedo stuff (or at least an ongoing debate) on the letters pages. At that time I was probably a child myself.

 

[PTK]

Plus, most people didn't. I think, fully comprehend the depths that some paedophiles could stoop to,

When I heard about PIE in the 1970s, the term "paedophilia" was not well-known. It seemed to be a group campaigning to reduce the age of consent. I saw references to PIE in a couple of places, but I did not take much notice, to be honest. It certainly did not appear to be a group advocating sexual abuse of children.

 

[8ball]

yes, i'm old so i have memories of them....i might be wrong but weren't they even given air time etc on the media ?

I have a hazy memory of something on TV around the mid to late 1980s.

 

[existentialist]

TBH, I wish we'd drop the "paedophilia" label, and stick to calling it what it is - child sexual abuse.

 

[Serge Forward]

When I heard about PIE in the 1970s, the term "paedophilia" was not well-known. It seemed to be a group campaigning to reduce the age of consent. I saw references to PIE in a couple of places, but I did not take much notice, to be honest. It certainly did not appear to be a group advocating sexual abuse of children.

That's my recollection from the 70s too. Know-nothing 14 year old me thinking it was all about what me and that lass from our class got up to shouldn't be illegal It never occurred to me that nonces were a thing back then, and the old fella who groped me up on top deck of the bus to Eccles or the bloke that tried to chat me up outside the Patricroft music shop and get me back to his flat were some sort of weird disgusting oddities. I don't think it was till Esther Rantzen's campaign in the early 80s when the penny finally dropped.

 

[Idris2002]

I got Tariq Ali's memoirs for Christmas. There's a very brief reference to how the PIE were, apparently, not allowed access to the pages of the IMG publications. I mention this because I was about to type that surely it was the middle-class lifestyle left who were taken by the smooth CSA apologists/promoters, but weren't the IMG a classic of that lifestyle kind?

 

[A380]

And yet lots of people on this site were recently supporting a man convicted of having sex with a young person in a country the UK has strong economic and political links with…

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And yet lots of people on this site were recently supporting a man convicted of having sex with a child in a country the UK has strong economic and political links with…

Who was that?

 

[A380]

Who was that?

Here’s the thread. Take your pick.

Marcus has been jailed for a year for having sex with a 17 year old when he was 17.
Even though he broke the law, it would be a heartless person that did not feel for the lad.
17 years old and a year in a rough adult ( I presume ) prison doesn't bare thinking about.
I just hope the girls mother feels proud of herself ( not ) for reporting this.

18 year old facing Dubai jail over holiday romance stunned at lack of help from David Lammy MP

Detained in Dubai suggests that travel warnings are issued to travellers en route to Dubai at the point of ticket purchase

www.detainedindubai.org

Marcus Fakana: Briton, 18, sentenced over Dubai sex with girl, 17 - BBC News

Marcus Fakana has been sentenced for a year over the relationship, a campaign group in Dubai says.

www.bbc.com

Let me point out that I think what happened to the convicted man is awful and almost certainly the result of racism by the survivor’s mother and the Dubai authorities. And also that I find the activities of the PIE activists abhorrent.

 

[Wilf]

Let me point out that I think what happened to the convicted man is awful and almost certainly the result of racism by the survivor’s mother and the Dubai authorities. And also that I find the activities of the PIE activists abhorrent.

Given the above, I'm not sure what your point is or why you mention the Dubai case on this thread.

 

[A380]

Given the above, I'm not sure what your point is or why you mention the Dubai case on this thread.

My point is that opinions not only change over time but also differ in different places. And that certain posters take conflicting but equally didactic positions.

What was the point of your post, out of interest?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Here’s the thread. Take your pick.




Let me point out that I think what happened to the convicted man is awful and almost certainly the result of racism by the survivor’s mother and the Dubai authorities. And also that I find the activities of the PIE activists abhorrent.

That's a bizarre thing to bring up here. Totally irrelevant.

Also, you misrepresent it. If he was convicted age 17 for having sex with someone else age 17, that is NOT a MAN being convicted for having sex with a CHILD. Can't be as they're the same age.

So pretty poor of you to say that.

I see you've edited to say 'young person'. But it's still very misleading. It should say 'young person having sex with another young person of the same age'.

I guess this could be tangentially relevant in the sense that the UK's sex laws in the 70s also made no sense. If, say, a 21-year-old man had sex with a 20-year-old man, both were committing a criminal offence.

 

[Aaronf]

I can't say anything about that thread as I never commented on it so I don't know. I was looking at wiki again though and counted 38 such groups on there across the world that basically advocate for the same as the start of this thread :'(

38 groups that must have took some organising with God knows how many members who wanted one of the vilest and abhorrent things imaginable to be legalised

It doesn't bear thinking about when you really think about it, it's almost easier to discuss it?

I hope they're all abolished and most of them aren't alive anymore.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Of course, it's that mess and clear injustice in the UK's sex laws of the time, which still treated homosexuality as deviance and homosexual men as predators from whom teenagers needed to be protected, that the PIE attempted to take advantage of: we're villified as perverts, too.

 

[The39thStep]

I got Tariq Ali's memoirs for Christmas. There's a very brief reference to how the PIE were, apparently, not allowed access to the pages of the IMG publications. I mention this because I was about to type that surely it was the middle-class lifestyle left who were taken by the smooth CSA apologists/promoters, but weren't the IMG a classic of that lifestyle kind?

I went off him during the period he declared he was voting Lib Dem . However I did think of though buying that book. is it any good ?

 

[A380]

That's a bizarre thing to bring up here. Totally irrelevant.

Also, you misrepresent it. If he was convicted age 17 for having sex with someone else age 17, that is NOT a MAN being convicted for having sex with a CHILD. Can't be as they're the same age.

So pretty poor of you to say that.

I see you've edited to say 'young person'. But it's still very misleading. It should say 'young person having sex with another young person of the same age'.

I guess this could be tangentially relevant in the sense that the UK's sex laws in the 70s also made no sense. If, say, a 21-year-old man had sex with a 20-year-old man, both were committing a criminal offence.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thanks for proving my point.

You had a point???

Do you accept that you misrepresented the case in your original post ?

 

[Idris2002]

I went off him during the period he declared he was voting Lib Dem . However I did think of though buying that book. is it any good ?

I thought it was great - but a great library book, i.e. best ordered from your local lending library if you have one. While the man himself is a Mass of Contradictions, he was also a Witness to History, and he seems to have literally known everyone who was anyone.

 

[The39thStep]

My mum knew one of those people (as a colleague and union comrade) who is thankfully dead now. She continued to make excuses for him right up to his death. As far as I can tell, they managed to persuade quite a few people on the left (including some Labour party politicians) that the paedophile cause was part of the general sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s. I have a vague memory of reading a basically pro paedophile article in the Guardian in the late 80s or early 90s. Complete shitshow and any survivors should be added to the sex offenders register.

Wasn't just here , there were similar movements in France and Germany who received some backing from those who would have identified as liberal left. I think the German greens also had some confused policy and there was if course the infamous Kentler programme which placed children in the foster care of known paedophiles.

 

[A380]

You had a point???

Do you accept that you misrepresented the case in your original post ?

No. I do accept that you are incapable of seeing the nuance though. Carry on derailing.

 

[Wilf]

My point is that opinions not only change over time but also differ in different places. And that certain posters take conflicting but equally didactic positions.

What was the point of your post, out of interest?

This thread is about a group advocating the abuse of children, a group of whom around 50% of the membership seem to have actually committed child sexual abuse according to the link in the OP (the number will be higher than that, given the amount of unreported abuse). It seemed very odd to mention the case of a 17 and 18 having consensual sex, throwing that into the mix. And, specifically, in the bold bit below, having a dig at posters on here for, what, some kind of inconsistency??

However much mores change, how much of a relativist you are, there is a profound difference between the abuse of children and a consensual sexual encounter between young adults that took place in a country with deeply repressive laws around sex.

And yet lots of people on this site were recently supporting a man convicted of having sex with a young person in a country the UK has strong economic and political links with…

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No. I do accept that you are incapable of seeing the nuance though. Carry on derailing.

You had a point and nuance???????????

 

[A380]

You had a point and nuance???????????

I did obviously. But I wouldn’t expect you to pick up on those.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I did obviously. But I wouldn’t expect you to pick up on those.

Yeah cos I'm a great big thickie and you're really clever!!!

 

[The39thStep]

I thought it was great - but a great library book, i.e. best ordered from your local lending library if you have one. While the man himself is a Mass of Contradictions, he was also a Witness to History, and he seems to have literally known everyone who was anyone.

Including me He used to pop round for meals , educationals at this IMG squat down at the end of the road .It was on the old EMI factory estate and there were about 5 or 6 squats including the one we had which later ended up as part of a housing association. He was quite chatty and tbf didn't bother pursuing the differences with me over me being IS/SWP influenced. Ken McCloud the future SF writer was in the squat I lived in , although it turned out that he was an entrist in the Migs from another Trot group or something like that.

 

[A380]

Yeah cos I'm a great big thickie and you're really clever!!!

I’m not really clever.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This thread is about a group advocating the abuse of children, a group of whom around 50% of the membership seem to have actually committed child sexual abuse according to the link in the OP (the number will be higher than that, given the amount of unreported abuse). It seemed very odd to mention the case of a 17 and 18 having consensual sex, throwing that into the mix. And, specifically, in the bold bit below, having a dig at posters on here for, what, some kind of inconsistency??

However much mores change, how much of a relativist you are, there is a profound difference between the abuse of children and a consensual sexual encounter between young adults that took place in a country with deeply repressive laws around sex.

The moral of that particular story, and of many others, is that you should never, ever go to Dubai.

It has no bearing on anything being discussed on this thread.

 

[TopCat]

I get the impression some of this was down to people wanting to oppose homophobia/equalise the age of consent and that PIE absolutely and cynically played on that. (I mean it's absolutely mind boggling to us how any of this could have been allowed to happen. )

The R4 programme is In Dark Corners - Series 2 - 1. The List - BBC Sounds

I recollect forty years ago that the anarchist 121 Centre in Brixton stocked a magazine called “Minor Matters” that was produced by PIE. The collective were shocked when I advocated violence for the producers and to them if they stocked it again. Took a while to catch up with the fella who dropped the magazines off but time ran short for him one day.

 

[TopCat]

yes, i'm old so i have memories of them....i might be wrong but weren't they even given air time etc on the media ?

Yes.