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Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?

That's a good post Rimbaud, but I think it still misses one basic point: the increase of consumption power of workers from a hundred years ago to now. Imagine telling a worker between the wars that they could fly to Europe for a day's wage, or that they could afford to buy new clothes every month (and we know the true cost of that is paid by other workers but that's not the point here), or that they could eat a diet from all over the world.

Of course it's also true that there has been much undermining of that progress in consumption power recently, to the point that foodbanks are a regular part of everyday life for many people. Yet that is 3-5% of the population using foodbanks. You don't build mass movements on even 5% of people, no matter how outrageous their falling into poverty may be. And yes, the cost of living crisis has affected many more, but from a consumption level that was unimaginable a hundred years ago.

Orthodox socialists insist that workers only believe they have benefited from capitalism, and are in fact exploited by it, but this is rank sophistry to those who feel they've got a good quality of life out of capitalism. Even when wages stopped rising, the increase in cheap goods from china benefited working people here enormously and people really feel that. They really experience it. There's no point in being in denial about that experience. And of course we can talk about outsourcing our immiseration abroad - but it does mean less immiseration in this country.
Of course you build mass movements on 3-5% of the population you numpty. How many people do you think were active in the anti-poll tax movement or the anti-war movement of the early 2000s or are members of political parties now? What proportion of the population do you think were actively involved in chartism? In struggles for the vote? Your stupidity is only topped by your ignorance.
 
That's a good post Rimbaud, but I think it still misses one basic point: the increase of consumption power of workers from a hundred years ago to now. Imagine telling a worker between the wars that they could fly to Europe for a day's wage, or that they could afford to buy new clothes every month (and we know the true cost of that is paid by other workers but that's not the point here), or that they could eat a diet from all over the world.

Of course it's also true that there has been much undermining of that progress in consumption power recently, to the point that foodbanks are a regular part of everyday life for many people. Yet that is 3-5% of the population using foodbanks. You don't build mass movements on even 5% of people, no matter how outrageous their falling into poverty may be. And yes, the cost of living crisis has affected many more, but from a consumption level that was unimaginable a hundred years ago.

Orthodox socialists insist that workers only believe they have benefited from capitalism, and are in fact exploited by it, but this is rank sophistry to those who feel they've got a good quality of life out of capitalism. Even when wages stopped rising, the increase in cheap goods from china benefited working people here enormously and people really feel that. They really experience it. There's no point in being in denial about that experience. And of course we can talk about outsourcing our immiseration abroad - but it does mean less immiseration in this country.

Fair point, and I think that also relates to what I said about household consumer products creating a more individualised lifestyle and giving people better things to do with their time.

But - I do not believe that capitalism is stable.

Firstly, the huge improvements in quality of life in the west are largely a legacy of organised labour, and as the strength of labour declines a lot of those benefits are fading away.

Secondly, there is an almost global problem of inflated housing stock. IMO the stability of global capitalism today rests on lopsided demographics (baby boom followed by declining birth rate) where there is a sufficiently large demographic who have benefited from this relative to those younger people who have suffered because of it. This won't be permanent though, and the fight for affordable housing seems a good rallying point to unify working classes in different countries.

A third related point is the emergence of a rent seeking capitalism. Inheritance and property ownership is becoming more salient than skills and profession in determining your social class. Digital monopolies are also more like rent seeking landlords than traditional 19th Century capitalists. I think AI will accelerate this process by essentially deskilling a wide variety of professions. ChatGPT can already write basic code for a simple program, but one can imagine in 10 years time a more advanced AI which can write complex computer programs based on simple text prompts. Significantly this means the ability to raise your social class through education or work is reduced and inheritance of property becomes the defining thing.

Fourth, far from exporting emmiseration, outsourcing of industries to the third world has significantly improved living standards in other countries by bringing people out of the countryside and into some kind of urban consumer economy. But as we are seeing in China now, that also eventually runs against a limit and now rising labour costs contribute to manufacturing moving to places like India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh. However this also means that there is no longer so much of a massive divide between the rural impoverished masses of the developing world and the urbanised working class in the west. Our lives and struggles are no longer so alien from each other.

Fifth, environmental crisis. Reading Hobsbawm's account of what he refers to as "the age of catastrophe" - from the outbreak of WW1 through the Great Depression and to the end of WW2 - you are struck by how capitalism lurched from crisis to crisis from the senseless slaughter of WW1, it isn't surprising that Communism held widespread appeal as an alternative to what appeared to be a failing system.

But I think we are entering a new age of catastrophe now. Capitalism got out of the early 20th Century crisis first by destruction and rebuilding, and then by globalisation and the expansion to new markets. But I wonder if now it is both running out of new frontiers for growth (hence the near-global real estate boom as that is the best bet for growing capital over productive investments), and also running up against environmental limits. The refugee crisis and the pandemic are closely related to the environmental crisis, and additionally the rise of the populist right and the decay of democratic life is, I suspect, a product of the same process of individualisation and depoliticisation which has made the Labour movement almost disappear. For this reason I think that the re-emergence of socialism as a vital movement will have to appear as a re-assertion of democracy in the face of right wing populism and democratic decline. I think those who identify as the left should focus first primarily on attempts to revitalise democracy first, as a means to create the conditions for a new labour movement. For example, wiithin the UK context, getting more powers to local government opens up new possibilities for the left - there is a reason why Thatcher centralised power. A radical left city council could still easily be elected in somewhere like Glasgow, Liverpool, or Newcastle, but under current conditions there's not much point as there's nothing you could do, maybe focusing on political reform and democratic renewal can create temporary alliances which might not be workable on a purely socialist platform.
 
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"The philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways, the point is not to change it but to interpret it more "
I meant to answer this at the time but was too tired...I'm too tired now tbh but I'm going rattle something off as best i can as its now or never.

There's two things there in your jokey post, there's interpretation and change....the strategy of how to change society is based on the accuracy of the interpretation. They're not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand.

Marx wasn't someone who skimped detail, the endless pages of writing were an attempt to accurately and scientifically interpret society. My "30 subclasses" thing is basically suggesting being more accurate and recognising where gaps and overlaps exist in a modern complex class structure. And of course there are still massive areas of overlap, and important areas where a common message can resonate across them all.

Worth saying that the right these days have proven to be much more aware of exactly this stratified class landscape, and are effectively targeting different media messages accurately to different subgroups and then trying to tie that all together with an overarching message. If talking about electoral politics, a socialist party needs be doing something similar- recognising the differences within subsets of classes and trying to bring as many of these people into the tent as possible.
 
..... alliance between downwardly mobile middle classes and 'other' precarious workers......
I think it already exists in organisations like IWGB, United Voices of the World and LondonRenters Union. They're relatively small so there is a question of how to scale up.
Sounds like a reasonable description of Momentum and most active left wing groups tbh.
....yes to the above and Id add that Corbynism did manage to reach across many subclass divides, proven by how Labour got less than a percentage point off Blairs 97 landslide in the popular vote in 2017 ....the case Dan Evans makes is that in amongst Corbyns failures was reaching into trad petit booj territory, and I think cracking that particular nut cracks other electoral barriers too.
Even outside of party-political seat-winning messaging, being able to communicate in a way that can appeal across these groups is essential if we want a broad majority movement.

Going back for a sec, the classic Marxist communist appeal boils down to only proles without assets having nothing to lose but their chains....the narrowness of that appeal doesn't transplant well across modern british society en masse. At this point in British history whats needed is much more about finding the commonality across the subgroups of the widest possible definitions of the working class...the Many Not The Few manifesto came close tbf......but understanding that people do feel that they have more things to lose than their chains and do feel invested (to some extent emotionally and financially) in the system has to be taken into consideration if a majority are to be won over.

I'm a populist at heart, I'm not looking for differences for the sake of dividing people up, the opposite in fact, its about recognising and then overcoming the differences so people can come together.
 
....yes to the above and Id add that Corbynism did manage to reach across many subclass divides, proven by how Labour got less than a percentage point off Blairs 97 landslide in the popular vote in 2017 ....the case Dan Evans makes is that in amongst Corbyns failures was reaching into trad petit booj territory, and I think cracking that particular nut cracks other electoral barriers too.
Even outside of party-political seat-winning messaging, being able to communicate in a way that can appeal across these groups is essential if we want a broad majority movement.

Going back for a sec, the classic Marxist communist appeal boils down to only proles without assets having nothing to lose but their chains....the narrowness of that appeal doesn't transplant well across modern british society en masse. At this point in British history whats needed is much more about finding the commonality across the subgroups of the widest possible definitions of the working class...the Many Not The Few manifesto came close tbf......but understanding that people do feel that they have more things to lose than their chains and do feel invested (to some extent emotionally and financially) in the system has to be taken into consideration if a majority are to be won over.

I'm a populist at heart, I'm not looking for differences for the sake of dividing people up, the opposite in fact, its about recognising and then overcoming the differences so people can come together.
For me the puzzle isn't the analysis. The puzzle is why it hasn't worked.
 
Of course you build mass movements on 3-5% of the population you numpty. How many people do you think were active in the anti-poll tax movement or the anti-war movement of the early 2000s or are members of political parties now? What proportion of the population do you think were actively involved in chartism? In struggles for the vote? Your stupidity is only topped by your ignorance.
If you can't engage without being abusive, how about you just don't engage at all?

You can't resist the addition of something that shows you're better than whoever it is you're slagging off. Aside from anything else, in the context of a thread like this, your attitude is entirely politically useless.
 
If you can't engage without being abusive, how about you just don't engage at all?

You can't resist the addition of something that shows you're better than whoever it is you're slagging off. Aside from anything else, in the context of a thread like this, your attitude is entirely politically useless.
I can and I often do. You can't resist peeking at my posts, raising the veil of your vaunted ignore. It's just a pity you come out with such vapid bollocks when you reply.
 
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I've heard various people equate being 'Northern' with being working class. It's very strange.

This happens a lot on "Steph´s packed lunch". Earlier this year, Steph recounted an anecdote about when she worked at the BBC and a colleague identified herself as "a Northerner". Steph mocked this idea because she "was posh"!

On another episode the claim was made that "in the North" the meal eaten in the middle of the day is called "dinner", not "lunch". On a show broadcast from Leeds with "lunch" in its title!
 
For me the puzzle isn't the analysis. The puzzle is why it hasn't worked.
What in particular hasn't worked? Each case has its own faults I guess.

Thinking about the petit booj thing a bit more, Thatcher inarguably aimed at and won this as a class demographic and in Britain today it seems that legacy remains. Classic Marxism has tended to be suspicious at best if not been fully hostile to the petit b. Anarchism has been more positive in many cases.

On a day to day interpersonal level trad petit b people are liked, compared to PMC bosses etc.

I wonder to what extent winning the petit b is the missing link . . . And to what extent anarchist libertarianism might be the element missing.

Thinking personally I'm a small state person - I don't trust the big state, coming from an anarchist perspective ( particularly it's military, policing, surveillance aspects)... I do believe a state is necessary for things that require 'national ' solutions (utilities, health, broadly speaking education, etc), including extending workers control and horizontalism and accountability into those systems as much s possible.

Many people don't trust the state and rightly so and associate that squarely with a paternalistic left.
 
What in particular hasn't worked? Each case has its own faults I guess.

Thinking about the petit booj thing a bit more, Thatcher inarguably aimed at and won this as a class demographic and in Britain today it seems that legacy remains. Classic Marxism has tended to be suspicious at best if not been fully hostile to the petit b. Anarchism has been more positive in many cases.

On a day to day interpersonal level trad petit b people are liked, compared to PMC bosses etc.

I wonder to what extent winning the petit b is the missing link . . . And to what extent anarchist libertarianism might be the element missing.

Thinking personally I'm a small state person - I don't trust the big state, coming from an anarchist perspective ( particularly it's military, policing, surveillance aspects)... I do believe a state is necessary for things that require 'national ' solutions (utilities, health, broadly speaking education, etc), including extending workers control and horizontalism and accountability into those systems as much s possible.

Many people don't trust the state and rightly so and associate that squarely with a paternalistic left.
Health requires surveillance and under some conditions coercion
 
I meant to answer this at the time but was too tired...I'm too tired now tbh but I'm going rattle something off as best i can as its now or never.

There's two things there in your jokey post, there's interpretation and change....the strategy of how to change society is based on the accuracy of the interpretation. They're not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand.

Marx wasn't someone who skimped detail, the endless pages of writing were an attempt to accurately and scientifically interpret society. My "30 subclasses" thing is basically suggesting being more accurate and recognising where gaps and overlaps exist in a modern complex class structure. And of course there are still massive areas of overlap, and important areas where a common message can resonate across them all.

Worth saying that the right these days have proven to be much more aware of exactly this stratified class landscape, and are effectively targeting different media messages accurately to different subgroups and then trying to tie that all together with an overarching message. If talking about electoral politics, a socialist party needs be doing something similar- recognising the differences within subsets of classes and trying to bring as many of these people into the tent as possible.
We are all tired Ska , you and others even more so probably. The amount of effort and time into constructing 'new' analysis, finding new classes to define, then new strategies to appeal to them, then new alliances to build would I suspect exhaust most people leaving no energy for any engagement in actually delivering any of this.
 
This happens a lot on "Steph´s packed lunch". Earlier this year, Steph recounted an anecdote about when she worked at the BBC and a colleague identified herself as "a Northerner". Steph mocked this idea because she "was posh"!

On another episode the claim was made that "in the North" the meal eaten in the middle of the day is called "dinner", not "lunch". On a show broadcast from Leeds with "lunch" in its title!
“Dinner” isn’t time specific and can refer to either lunch or tea - as I explained to my German English teacher Auntie who was mocking the lack of precision of English compared to German. She’s quite the National stereotype.
 
This happens a lot on "Steph´s packed lunch". Earlier this year, Steph recounted an anecdote about when she worked at the BBC and a colleague identified herself as "a Northerner". Steph mocked this idea because she "was posh"!

On another episode the claim was made that "in the North" the meal eaten in the middle of the day is called "dinner", not "lunch". On a show broadcast from Leeds with "lunch" in its title!
When I was a kid, lunch was a bag of crisps and a wagon wheel in the morning break, followed by dinner at mid day (the existence of "dinner ladies" reinforced this), then you had your tea in the early evening.

Eta. None of this has fuck all to do with class and everything to do with region. Class is about one's relationship to the means of production. The rest is all bunkum.
 
What I'd question perhaps is the theory of alienation, that which Marx felt was central to human nature - creativity and control of that creativity - is it? People are concerned with the health and well being of themselves and their family, they want to have some fun, they're not defined by their work, that now seems quite pragmatic. Marx was clearly a hugely creative person, revolutions are stories of untapped creativity, so there's this notion of true human nature unfettered by oppression and released by collective agency, but perhaps this is as good as it gets, you go to work, you have some job satisfaction, you have hobbies out of work, and that's enough, and later stage capitalism certainly aids that. Consumerism creates and amplifies those interests, our creativity outside of work, allows you to experience beautiful objects and places, and it aids other things most humans find important, such as belonging through social status etc. Is this an alienated state?

I think this is a really interesting point particularly in light of the way the right have often managed to sell themselves as pushing an (often very warped) version of 'freedom' in a way the left haven't, in general. I suppose it's not quite the same thing but it seems to me there's a big overlap there - the left aren't seen as advocating a way to have more opportunity to do those things, they're seen as more controlling if anything.
 
I think this is a really interesting point particularly in light of the way the right have often managed to sell themselves as pushing an (often very warped) version of 'freedom' in a way the left haven't, in general. I suppose it's not quite the same thing but it seems to me there's a big overlap there - the left aren't seen as advocating a way to have more opportunity to do those things, they're seen as more controlling if anything.
young people on the left could point to 'quiet quitting' and 'lazy girl jobs' as trends that fit that sort of belief. there's a resignation to the status quo, so the least you can do is try and make it work for you.
 
What in particular hasn't worked? Each case has its own faults I guess.

Thinking about the petit booj thing a bit more, Thatcher inarguably aimed at and won this as a class demographic and in Britain today it seems that legacy remains. Classic Marxism has tended to be suspicious at best if not been fully hostile to the petit b. Anarchism has been more positive in many cases.

On a day to day interpersonal level trad petit b people are liked, compared to PMC bosses etc.

I wonder to what extent winning the petit b is the missing link . . . And to what extent anarchist libertarianism might be the element missing.

Thinking personally I'm a small state person - I don't trust the big state, coming from an anarchist perspective ( particularly it's military, policing, surveillance aspects)... I do believe a state is necessary for things that require 'national ' solutions (utilities, health, broadly speaking education, etc), including extending workers control and horizontalism and accountability into those systems as much s possible.

Many people don't trust the state and rightly so and associate that squarely with a paternalistic left.

I think something of the old Morris/Kropotkin/Garden cities stuff persists. And is seeing a bit of a resurgence. Though more in the craft side of things, with some extension into associated trades (joinery, fabrication etc). I am admittedly completely biased, being a self-employed furniture maker. Here, and presumably in cities that ran on a similar basis, we also have the connection to little mesters workshops etc. People certainly use that as part of their identity... It's a part of the fabric of the city, and something that is a lot easier to associate with than more abstract ideas. Though as such also more malleable. A lot of self-employment, at least where some kind of workspace is needed, does effectively run as informal cooperatives... It's something of a necessity given how the property market works. Where I am now we have some level of community organisation beyond that, though it's not always particularly coherent. Would definitely say there's a lot of potential for development from an anarchist perspective, but... needs people who have a good understanding of both the academic background and the realities of this type of work. And the time. Always the time.

I think there's also a degree of er... selection bias? in Thatcher's winning of the PB. The steel crises of the 70s meant that people like the mesters were already in full collapse by the time she comes to power. Some survive of course, but not really as a significant force.
 
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When I was a kid, lunch was a bag of crisps and a wagon wheel in the morning break, followed by dinner at mid day (the existence of "dinner ladies" reinforced this), then you had your tea in the early evening.

Eta. None of this has fuck all to do with class and everything to do with region. Class is about one's relationship to the means of production. The rest is all bunkum.

My objection on "Steph´s packed lunch" was the suggestion that calling your midday meal "dinner" was "Northern". As you rightly point out, it isn´t. From my experience, at least until recently, "dinner" was widespread throughout Britain, except London. I grew up on the south coast, where we had dinner ladies and dinner tickets, and where you ate your midday meal at dinner time.

Here in Spain, it is much easier. Each of the five (!) meal times is clearly defined and universally recognised, to the extent that there is not just a noun, but a verb for each one (so: desayuno = breakfast; desayunar = to have breakfast etc.)
 
My objection on "Steph´s packed lunch" was the suggestion that calling your midday meal "dinner" was "Northern". As you rightly point out, it isn´t. From my experience, at least until recently, "dinner" was widespread throughout Britain, except London. I grew up on the south coast, where we had dinner ladies and dinner tickets, and where you ate your midday meal at dinner time.

dunno really.

i was at primary school in south london in the 70s - in an era before league tables and all that balls, it was fairly socially mixed, with some kids from the fringes of blackheath, some from the fringes of the downham estate, and the bit between was a mix of 1930s semis and what were still council estates. we had 'school dinners' paid for with 'dinner money', and 'dinner ladies' who supervised it all, but some kids brought 'packed lunches'. i can't remember now what we called the building where lunch / dinner was cooked and eaten / thrown around.
 
Still, people who call their evening meal 'supper' are clearly first up against the wall. :mad:
Most of the elderly people I work with call what I call 'tea', 'supper'. But they really are very old, shooting them against a wall would be a bit of a waste of bullets.
I grew up on the south coast, where we had dinner ladies and dinner tickets, and where you ate your midday meal at dinner time.
Yep we called it dinner too, and that was in Gosport which is about as far from 'the north' as you can get.
we had 'school dinners' paid for with 'dinner money', and 'dinner ladies' who supervised it all, but some kids brought 'packed lunches'.
It's always been 'school dinner' but 'packed lunch' IME, this is the kind of random vocabulary rule that makes English such a great language for learners :D
 
How has this thread turned into chat about what people call things? We were previously having some very interesting discussions about class and social change.
 
How has this thread turned into chat about what people call things? We were previously having some very interesting discussions about class and social change.

It´s all part of the income/culture dichotomy: whether class is distinguished by what you earn or what you do. What you call things is cultural, part of what you do.
 
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