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Class in Academia

I got twatted around a lot early on in education in this sort of vein (the most infamous one being my undergrad degree, which I shan't discuss even vaguely on here else I genuinely will be doxxing myself). It was awful at the time but it meant I built my career foundations on absolute fucking bedrock as I had no alternative, and I'm glad I learnt the lesson early. Lots of people at the time who got the privilege I didn't have are now looking trapped with dwindling career and income prospects, as well as alienated from a lot of the community and friends they lost along the way. But then there's survivorship bias, it's ok for me to say it turned out alright but for a lot of people in a similar position to me, it didn't.

I do want to go back and do a PhD and I'm looking forward to knowing that if it goes tits up I can walk away, which was simply not an option for most working class students while I was a student - you realistically had one shot at a degree and that was that, and usually couldn't even get digs or work lined up to support yourself if you dropped out, and the middle class and their allies knew that.

I've found the floundering over the past couple years at my former uni hysterically funny to watch as they had taken for granted that they were essentially gatekeepers for the industries they cover and with the changes in the economy they're not any more, so simultaneously prospective students are making the judgement that the degrees don't provide any value (as the only value was to pass gatekeeping) and the local industries don't want to be associated with HE because it looks like a racket, with funding bodies external to universities cottoning on that it's mostly a class signifier and if they want to get money to disadvantaged people, a great blunt tool is just figuring out where the people who don't have degrees are at and sending money there. The 'correct' answer to "What level of education do you/your workforce have" in some quite large industries is now contraindicative with the Blairite "everyone should have a degree" attitude.
 
Even at the time the Blaire policies came in it was recognised in the less elitist parts of the sector that increasing degree places was one thing but the rest of the system had to see increases as well. Which, it has succeeded (PhD places, in science and engineering at least, but definitely not outside those areas,) and dismally failed on (no commensurate increase in postdocs, fellowships, tenure positions, grant funding, reader, professor positions). Even the 5 year guaranteed early career fellowship's leading to lectureships haven't been foolproof - I know people that discovered they absolutely did not want to be tenured during their fellowships, this not leading to a new lecturership after all.

Professional services have also seen funding and staff cuts despite shoring up an academic institution. And many professional services positions are not well paid despite entry requirements of at least one degree, specialised qualifications, niche but lengthy experience levels.

I saw a Scottish university recently advertise a professional services position which was described as essentially setting up and running a niche research centre, requiring extensive sector contacts and business engagement experience, all for a starting salary of £35k. It was basically a job advert for burnout .
 
I’ve just submitted a fucking banging letter to the editor of the journal of child neurology as a second author. And some fucking Emeritus Professor at a University in Israel has piped up about how unfair it is he’s not second author and just on the collab list.

Well tough shit mate, I fucking wrote it, I made the connection with the rs-MRI studies of this brain network and the phenotypic trait, you’re just part of the international collab. cos you did some wishy washy ‘research’ on “trauma” years ago on it. I’ll fight ya :D
 
muscovyduck said:
I got twatted around a lot early on in education in this sort of vein (the most infamous one being my undergrad degree, which I shan't discuss even vaguely on here else I genuinely will be doxxing myself). It was awful at the time but it meant I built my career foundations on absolute fucking bedrock as I had no alternative, and I'm glad I learnt the lesson early. Lots of people at the time who got the privilege I didn't have are now looking trapped with dwindling career and income prospects, as well as alienated from a lot of the community and friends they lost along the way. But then there's survivorship bias, it's ok for me to say it turned out alright but for a lot of people in a similar position to me, it didn't.

I do want to go back and do a PhD and I'm looking forward to knowing that if it goes tits up I can walk away, which was simply not an option for most working class students while I was a student - you realistically had one shot at a degree and that was that, and usually couldn't even get digs or work lined up to support yourself if you dropped out, and the middle class and their allies knew that.

I've found the floundering over the past couple years at my former uni hysterically funny to watch as they had taken for granted that they were essentially gatekeepers for the industries they cover and with the changes in the economy they're not any more, so simultaneously prospective students are making the judgement that the degrees don't provide any value (as the only value was to pass gatekeeping) and the local industries don't want to be associated with HE because it looks like a racket, with funding bodies external to universities cottoning on that it's mostly a class signifier and if they want to get money to disadvantaged people, a great blunt tool is just figuring out where the people who don't have degrees are at and sending money there. The 'correct' answer to "What level of education do you/your workforce have" in some quite large industries is now contraindicative with the Blairite "everyone should have a degree" attitude.
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Couldn’t agree more with this.

I’ve been horrified by the SCAM of HE. Recently did a single clinical module of an MSc (cos I wanted a quick spoon feed of the latest research). The MSc students were this heartbreaking bunch of young people who had just finished a neuroscience BSc, assistant psychologists wanting to do DClins, and foreign students wanting to get a toehold in the UK.

I found it upsetting as my impression was that these YP were essentially paying 9k to “get to the next stage” (whether that was grad medicine, clin psychology, research etc). But actually the systems fucked. It’s an arms race where only the Universities profit and the kids pay.

Fuck that shit. A kids either bright enough to step into it or they’re not. Paying 9k for some letters should have fuck all to do with it.

At the turn of the century I stepped from doing my A levels at night school (!! cos I didn’t have anywhere to live), to a first degree, then straight into a PhD in genetics that was not only fully funded I was PAID to do it like a job. My interview at UCL was just me talking shit, hand shake, got it. And that’s how it should be- your either capable or your not.

I’ve advised both my lads to avoid the SCAM. The eldest is working an apprenticeship and will get ahead in industry. The youngest will either go to Uni on a government bursary he’s won or do an apprenticeship with Deloitte.
 
Edie said:
And muscovyduck id think carefully about a PhD. Especially if you are not being paid to do it.
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You're 100% right with this advice. I won't be accepting any less than what I'm worth. If I have to move abroad to get that, or simply never do one, so be it. I think in some cases it's beneficial for someone to do an unpaid one (as discussed upthread, eg where the stress of dealing with funding bodies is going to be the barrier to success) but for me it's not the case.
 
muscovyduck said:
You're 100% right with this advice. I won't be accepting any less than what I'm worth. If I have to move abroad to get that, or simply never do one, so be it. I think in some cases it's beneficial for someone to do an unpaid one (as discussed upthread, eg where the stress of dealing with funding bodies is going to be the barrier to success) but for me it's not the case.
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I have a general principle that I don’t work for free. Being offered an “opportunity” to work for free sounds much like an opportunity to be mugged off to me 🤨

By all means read stuff in your free time! I roam pubmed late at night dashing down rabbit holes. Write stuff! If you’re good just email up the PI with an idea for an editorial or letter you can do together (something you don’t need ££ to produce). Many a PI will jump at the chance of you doing the legwork for them to be last author. Do THIS kind of free work- quick gains, low cost, good impact for YOU.

But think carefully about embarking on some three year unpaid odyssey cos really who benefits??

I say this cos I like you x

Where do you wanna go? Do you want to be a PI with your own lab? Or are you doing a PhD to “get ahead”?

If the former- do you have what it takes to smash it at the highest level? Cos a career of low paid insecure post docs is not a fab option (see thread).

If it’s to “get ahead” … think carefully…
 
Fwiw I didn’t have what it took to smash an academic career. My mate Jim did- he got (no word of a lie) three Nature papers during his PhD :D I knew I couldn’t do that- not bright enough. My strengths lay elsewhere.
 
Masters' degrees have become the big moneyspinners for universities encouraged to act like businesses and make up money lost from govt grants. That means they often have way too many students and the standard of teaching varies hugely, with some at big institutions like LSE just doing big lectures with 200 people (the better masters do a lot of small seminars based around discussion). The foreign students the university recruits for the big money don't always have adequate English and can't always contribute to discussions. It's a clusterfuck and, yes, a scam because now a lot of people are expected to have a masters to distinguish themselves from an ordinary graduate. There are still good masters programs but it's hard to know which they are before you start.
 
Brainaddict said:
Masters' degrees have become the big moneyspinners for universities encouraged to act like businesses and make up money lost from govt grants. That means they often have way too many students and the standard of teaching varies hugely, with some at big institutions like LSE just doing big lectures with 200 people (the better masters do a lot of small seminars based around discussion). The foreign students the university recruits for the big money don't always have adequate English and can't always contribute to discussions. It's a clusterfuck and, yes, a scam because now a lot of people are expected to have a masters to distinguish themselves from an ordinary graduate. There are still good masters programs but it's hard to know which they are before you start.
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It's a buyers' market, too. As you say a proliferation of guff courses- effectively a fourth / fifth year of undergraduate done on the cheap- mean it's harder to cut through all that chaff to get the course that is right for you.

Definitely worth potential Masters students being steely-eyed and waiting a year to do careful research on what sort of course they want and who they want to work with. In my subject your Masters buys access not just to expertise but also to industry contact books. If your prospective Masters tutors have no industry contacts or credibility then the course is a waste of time, sad to say.

My Masters was a good while ago now but my tutor, long retired, was immensely respected and has connections at the highest level across Europe, to whom he regularly introduced students keen to try and find some sort of job soon after finishing the course.
 
Edie said:
Couldn’t agree more with this.

I’ve been horrified by the SCAM of HE. Recently did a single clinical module of an MSc (cos I wanted a quick spoon feed of the latest research). The MSc students were this heartbreaking bunch of young people who had just finished a neuroscience BSc, assistant psychologists wanting to do DClins, and foreign students wanting to get a toehold in the UK.

I found it upsetting as my impression was that these YP were essentially paying 9k to “get to the next stage” (whether that was grad medicine, clin psychology, research etc). But actually the systems fucked. It’s an arms race where only the Universities profit and the kids pay.

Fuck that shit. A kids either bright enough to step into it or they’re not. Paying 9k for some letters should have fuck all to do with it.

At the turn of the century I stepped from doing my A levels at night school (!! cos I didn’t have anywhere to live), to a first degree, then straight into a PhD in genetics that was not only fully funded I was PAID to do it like a job. My interview at UCL was just me talking shit, hand shake, got it. And that’s how it should be- your either capable or your not.

I’ve advised both my lads to avoid the SCAM. The eldest is working an apprenticeship and will get ahead in industry. The youngest will either go to Uni on a government bursary he’s won or do an apprenticeship with Deloitte.
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Yeh back in the day lots of people went from ba/bsc to phd without the intermediary step of a masters. But ime much of what you need to know to start a PhD isn't taught at bachelor's level. For example, if you do ba history or English the longest piece of work you're likely to have done by the time you graduate is 6,000 words. By the time you finish a master's you'll have written a 12-15,000 word dissertation, which is basically a chapter of a PhD in length. When I did ba history we never looked at historical theory, I only encountered it when doing a master's: tho I was aware of the likes of marx, weber and so on from a level sociology. We weren't taught research skills at first degree level. I only know of one college, soas, that incorporates information literacy into a history degree - and in the library school at ucl information literacy is but an option,not a core module (which is daft as if anyone promotes information literacy it's going to be librarians). So a master's isn't letters to be bought but ime a true intermediary level, to raise knowledge and skills to prepare you for a PhD.

When I applied for my PhD i was told many unis won't accept people without a master's and preferably a master's with a distinction. Apart from the skills and experience gained, this will be down to the expansion of higher education, where so many more people are studying than before.

I wanted to do a PhD for ages. But I knew it wouldn't enhance my job prospects - I'm already far overqualified for any post I'm likely to get. One of my former tutors encouraged me in my ambitions but was very clear that doing a PhD might diminish rather than enhance my job prospects. Maybe I'll publish a book out of it. I'll also get extra letters after my name, afhea, after completing the teaching qualification necessary to instruct students. But for me it's that without doing a PhD I wouldn't be investigating my subject with advice, what I'm writing wouldn't be written - no one's looked at my subject in depth for nearly 50 years bar a phd on one aspect of it. I've been interested in victorian London for many years and so I'm happy enough to know my career- what's left of it - won't be advanced by my study. E2a the letters after my name wasn't meant seriously! Oh - and I know phd word lengths vary by subject eg about 100,000 in history, 25,000 in maths and so on so ymmv
 
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Edie said:
Couldn’t agree more with this.

I’ve been horrified by the SCAM of HE. Recently did a single clinical module of an MSc (cos I wanted a quick spoon feed of the latest research). The MSc students were this heartbreaking bunch of young people who had just finished a neuroscience BSc, assistant psychologists wanting to do DClins, and foreign students wanting to get a toehold in the UK.

I found it upsetting as my impression was that these YP were essentially paying 9k to “get to the next stage” (whether that was grad medicine, clin psychology, research etc). But actually the systems fucked. It’s an arms race where only the Universities profit and the kids pay.

Fuck that shit. A kids either bright enough to step into it or they’re not. Paying 9k for some letters should have fuck all to do with it.

At the turn of the century I stepped from doing my A levels at night school (!! cos I didn’t have anywhere to live), to a first degree, then straight into a PhD in genetics that was not only fully funded I was PAID to do it like a job. My interview at UCL was just me talking shit, hand shake, got it. And that’s how it should be- your either capable or your not.

I’ve advised both my lads to avoid the SCAM. The eldest is working an apprenticeship and will get ahead in industry. The youngest will either go to Uni on a government bursary he’s won or do an apprenticeship with Deloitte.
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You should see how commercial flight training works. £60,000 to £80,000 to get a 'frozen' licence. Basically all the bits of paper so you can get your first job.

Then five years as as an instructor, on less than minimum wage as they only get paid for flying hours but have to be at the school all day.

And/or paying someone like Ryan air on the funded first officer programme, basically they pay an airline for a type rating on an airliner then pay for the privilege of flying paying customers for 200/300 hours. All for a job where first officers are getting £25k a year...
 
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Brainaddict said:
Masters' degrees have become the big moneyspinners for universities encouraged to act like businesses and make up money lost from govt grants. That means they often have way too many students and the standard of teaching varies hugely, with some at big institutions like LSE just doing big lectures with 200 people (the better masters do a lot of small seminars based around discussion). The foreign students the university recruits for the big money don't always have adequate English and can't always contribute to discussions. It's a clusterfuck and, yes, a scam because now a lot of people are expected to have a masters to distinguish themselves from an ordinary graduate. There are still good masters programs but it's hard to know which they are before you start.
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I would say MBAs are up there as moneyspinners - fees can be whatever the uni feels like charging and these days even the requirements to have X years of experience in the workplace isn't always insisted upon. The quality of MBA courses varies significantly from institution to institution and country to country, class sizes can be immense and workloads high.

I do not have an MBA not do I have any intention of getting one.
 
I think there's probably huge variance in experience between disciplines.

Here's a bit of mine, from the field of Education:

Cons

As a first generation University student, I was clearly an outsider (despite being whitecishet middle-class). That inherited habitus was absent. But, in fairness, I wasn't alone in this. Even a number of senior academics felt this.

There are no jobs in academia to pursue. Education as a critical field is under sustained attack, and coupled with Uni budget cuts...forget about it. I ditched my AFHEA qualification as a pointless distraction.

Research funding is tiny and targeted to agendas I'm not interested in.

Academic life (conferences, publishing, etc.) is very inaccessible if you're not part of the scene. Being an insider requires constant "work on the self" and status/position.

Pros

I was able to go back to school teaching after University teaching and use the extra skills/experience. Some potential employers saw this a positive. For the majority who don't I'm already overqualified, overexperienced and viewed as a "threat", so a PhD doesn't change that.

My assertiveness and ability to defend my professional autonomy at work has improved immeasurably. "Expert status" means that managers are less likely to hassle me over pedagogical matters.

I didn't have to pay any fees, and there was enough bits of casual work around - that opened up because of my status as a PhD student- to bring in a bit of an income.

I got to spend three years indulging myself in theory, in reading, in researching, in writing. I enjoyed it. I learnt stuff. Wouldn't have got this chance without the alibi and discipline of doctoral study.

I could work on exactly what I wanted to, when I wanted to and how I wanted to.

I met some interesting, and interested, people. Was a good experience presenting my research at conferences.

Would I still do it if I turned the clock back? Hell yeah!
 
I was the first in my family to go to university on either side, my parents both left school at 16/17, mother did a variety of clerical Jobs after working in a bank for a bit and dad did all sorts of things before ending up in a manufacturing plant alongside my grandfather.
 
equationgirl said:
At another campus in western Europe I once asked the university a hypothetical question - if a tenured academic was convicted of murder would they lose their tenure? He had a bit of a think and said 'it's by no means certain that they would '.
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Just like on Inspector Morse. :cool:
 
equationgirl said:
I was the first in my family to go to university on either side, my parents both left school at 16/17, mother did a variety of clerical Jobs after working in a bank for a bit and dad did all sorts of things before ending up in a manufacturing plant alongside my grandfather.
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Likewise. Neither of my parents went to university. My mum left school at 14 and worked in the Miller-Rayner factory in Liverpool (she had ambitions to become a dancer). When I left school, I went through a series of dead-end jobs in local factories. I went to Newcastle Poly as a mature student. I started my MA in 2004 and completed it within a year and achieved a Distinction. Three years later, I started a PhD.
 
I was first in my family to go to university but I went to a pretty low ranking uni and to be honest wasn't particularly aware of class issues / barriers while I was there. Afterwards it dawned on me that my lack of any sort of family background in HE was precisely why I ended up on a bog standard course with lots of students from a similar background - but I think I'd have massively struggled to cope with the culture clash at that age so I think it was probably the right choice. Five years ago I did a masters at a Russell Group university and despite the fact I've had a whole career in fairly middle class occupations I felt like a total fish out of water class-wise.

Now I work for a Russell Group uni, though not as an academic, but I have to interface with the academics to a certain extent - but I'm working for a project that's hosted by a university but not primarily academic. Have had some excruciating networking events where I've realised I'm so far apart in life experience with the person I'm talking to it's almost impossible to have a useful dialogue. Meetings with research initiatives to explore collaborations where basically we're talking a different language - which is more around the impenetrable nature of academia to an outsider than class as such, but the upper middle class, hyper confident, like-the-sound-of-their-own-voice, scheming Professor is a real challenge to deal with when you're used to working with people who speak in plain English and say what they mean.
 
I've worked in support functions across three universities (one overseas, one Russell Group and one not Russell Group). I found that without a PhD some academics would not speak to you. I worked for two institutions that could trace their origins back to night schools for apprentices and people in employment, which meant fewer class issues for the most part. Having solid working class foundations meant these were very different from the other place I worked, where class was more evident across the board and this place was definitely not as welcoming to the working class.
 
I've dealt with hundreds of academics and I've never had one not speak to me because I don't have a PhD! I'd be pretty shocked if that happened to be honest, I'd consider escalating it as inappropriate behaviour.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
I've dealt with hundreds of academics and I've never had one not speak to me because I don't have a PhD! I'd be pretty shocked if that happened to be honest, I'd consider escalating it as inappropriate behaviour.
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I've found it really depends on the institution/person, I haven't had the issue for 16+ years due to aforementioned PhD so I would hope that practice has died a long overdue death. There's possibly some sexism thrown in for good measure.
 
I'm an academic from a lower middle class background, I guess.
I did come to HE late after a career in agriculture (aged 39). Given my former career, I've seen quite a lot of classism in my time and was somewhat surprised to see it in academia, and yet it is very real, but far more insidious and underhand than in Agriculture, surprisingly. I'd always been treated very well by the people I'd rented land from, for nominal rents often (usually because I helped them comply with some enviro scheme, so they got paid "the other end"). We've had whole workshops on classism in academia (mostly aimed at improving "the student experience"), and it's displays such a lack of the organisations self-awareness that they can see its an issue in the student body but don't know/don't care about staff, it's almost gaslighting.
I don't have a PhD and I don't intend to get one, despite pressure that I ought to.
I suppose this adds to all the classism I experienced when we moved south as a kid, that maybe 'm used to it. I've had to change the way I speak - people are surprised when I talk to my mam and dad and suddenly it comes out a bit "Corrie", but that is what you must do for people to take you seriously down south. My Girlfriend experienced exactly the same when she moved to take her first accountancy job post uni from Walsall (she lived at home and went to Aston), she had to totally change the way she spoke. Maybe a lifetime of it has made me shrug it off a bit now.

My job is mad insomuch as I can find my own projects to do, which Ive never been able to do before, and I don't have to get up at 4am to get shat on by livestock, but it is badly paid. I won't be doing it forever.
 
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