Middle class anxiety

[Pickman's model]

Majorities don't automatically mean governance

just look at trump / clinton

 

[danny la rouge]

Not that I think it's a great idea or ever likely to happen, but surely if Lucas' handpicked junta were miraculously able to cobble together a majority then they'd be as legitimate a government as any other coalition?

Indeed. But they aren’t, and nor can they be given she hasn’t invited a majority of MPs to it. Her suggestion seems to be a 10-member cabinet.

Normally if a government loses a vonc there would follow a GE, after which Lucas can attempt to control a majority of the House. That doesn’t seem to have been the suggestion though.

 

[killer b]

I can't see how without a GE

But why? How is Lucas cobbling together a majority from a number of parties any different from May cobbling together a majority from two (let's ignore for a moment the impossibility of it actually happening)?

 

[Steel Icarus]

May's government won more seats than any other giving her the opportunity to do a deal with other parties to form a working government. Lucas' party has yet to do the same.

 

[killer b]

Indeed. But they aren’t, and nor can they be given she hasn’t invited a majority of MPs to it. Her suggestion seems to be a 10-member cabinet.

Normally if a government loses a vonc there would follow a GE, after which Lucas can attempt to control a majority of the House. That doesn’t seem to have been the suggestion though.

I presumed her fantasy imagines her 10 member cabinet to be able to command a majority in the house, during the 14 day period after a VONC allowed for in the FTPA.

I mean, it's mad fantasy shit and never going to happen, but it's technically and constitutionally possible as far as I can see, and no more illegitimate than any other coalition.

 

[killer b]

May's government won more seats than any other giving her the opportunity to do a deal with other parties to form a working government. Lucas' party has yet to do the same.

But if the numbers had been slightly different in 2017 and the Tories hadn't been able to do a deal to form a government, then Labour might have been able to without a general election despite not winning the most seats. Support of a majority in parliament is what swings it.

Lucas' idea is totally laughable, but so is calling it some kind of antidemocratic junta. Pull yourselves together.

 

[8ball]

I presumed her fantasy imagines her 10 member cabinet to be able to command a majority in the house, during the 14 day period after a VONC allowed for in the FTPA.

Maybe - I really couldn't figure out what the hell she was on about.

 

[danny la rouge]

I presumed her fantasy imagines her 10 member cabinet to be able to command a majority in the house, during the 14 day period after a VONC allowed for in the FTPA.

I mean, it's mad fantasy shit and never going to happen, but it's technically and constitutionally possible as far as I can see, and no more illegitimate than any other coalition.

I only read reports of, rather than an original transcript, and she seems to have dropped it anyway.

For all I know it was taken out of context and all she was saying was “me and 9 of my friends could do a better job”, in which case, fair comment, there’s at least a 50/50 chance of them doing so. But it’s not how it was made to seem.

In any case, it’s a minor side track, and worth some chuckles, and eye-rolling at liberal authoritarianism, but not worth much of our time.

 

[chilango]

I disagree danny la rouge . Whilst this specific suggestion by Lucas might be pure fantasy, the idea of the suspension of liberal democratic norms to respond to a portrayed crisis is not. It's a direction of travel we've started down.

 

[danny la rouge]

I disagree danny la rouge . Whilst this specific suggestion by Lucas might be pure fantasy, the idea of the suspension of liberal democratic norms to respond to a portrayed crisis is not. It's a direction of travel we've started down.

That’s a fair point, actually. It’s completely in line with “the Queen will save us” and so on. Yup, part of a pattern.

 

[killer b]

Would it be a 'suspension of liberal democratic norms' if it were able to command a majority in the house though?

 

[danny la rouge]

Would it be a 'suspension of liberal democratic norms' if it were able to command a majority in the house though?

If it was after a Vonc but before a GE, yes. Nothing like it would have happened outside wartime in modern times, as far as I can see. That’s if I understood what she was proposing.

 

[butchersapron]

I disagree danny la rouge . Whilst this specific suggestion by Lucas might be pure fantasy, the idea of the suspension of liberal democratic norms to respond to a portrayed crisis is not. It's a direction of travel we've started down.

The EU has been quite a way down that road for some time now. In the democracy vs mobile capital fight it's role is to ensure that the former can be 'suspended' as and when required to the benefit of the latter. Or better, make the possibility of punitive suspension a condition of entry and pressure those already in to write such agreements into their constitution under threat of financial strangulation. Itself an example of such suspension - but suspension disguised as democracy.

 

[butchersapron]

This is what she really meant and who is what designed to appeal to as we all know, now that the lib-dems and green are fighting in and for the same stagnant pool once more.

 

[killer b]

If it was after a Vonc but before a GE, yes. Nothing like it would have happened outside wartime in modern times, as far as I can see. That’s if I understood what she was proposing.

The FTPA changed the way a VONC (in this specific circumstance) works - there's no precedent because the way parliament works was different.

 

[Idris2002]

I disagree danny la rouge . Whilst this specific suggestion by Lucas might be pure fantasy, the idea of the suspension of liberal democratic norms to respond to a portrayed crisis is not. It's a direction of travel we've started down.

A temporary suspension, you mean? Right?

 

[chilango]

Would it be a 'suspension of liberal democratic norms' if it were able to command a majority in the house though?

Yep. Absolutely. But in a sensible, moderate manner. Even just legitimising the idea of governments of national unity as a response to conjured crisis is doing this.

 

[chilango]

A temporary suspension, you mean? Right?

Yeah, sure.

 

[danny la rouge]

The FTPA changed the way a VONC (in this specific circumstance) works - there's no precedent because the way parliament works was different.

Many a tawdry act is within the letter of the law.

 

[killer b]

Yep. Absolutely. But in a sensible, moderate manner. Even just legitimising the idea of governments of national unity as a response to conjured crisis is doing this.

how would it be different from any other coalition arrangement?

 

[Cid]

This is what she really meant and who is what designed to appeal to as we all know, now that the lib-dems and green are fighting in the same stagnant pool.

View attachment 180805

Wow, the level of smug in that picture gives er... The one with the Hayek book guy and better dead than red t-shirt bloke... a run for its money.

 

[chilango]

how would it be different from any other coalition arrangement?

In political content, context and justification.

 

[killer b]

I don't really understand why. You may well be right, but I don't get how one majority cobbled together from a number of parties is different from another majority cobbled together from a number of parties.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I don't really understand why. You may well be right, but I don't get how one majority cobbled together from a number of parties is different from another majority cobbled together from a number of parties.

It's because "winning" a GE gives the winner the mandate to form a government if they can. Lucas is nowhere near having that mandate.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I mean, why her? Why should she get a crack at it?

 

[Combustible]

It's because "winning" a GE gives the winner the mandate to form a government if they can. Lucas is nowhere near having that mandate.

I'm not even sure that's strictly true constitutionally. It's the incumbent prime minister, not the leader of the largest party who gets the first go at forming a government, which is why both Heath and Brown didn't immediately resign, but waited until it was clear that they couldn't do a deal.

That doesn't mean it's not a stupid idea, and Corbyn as leader of the largest opposition party clearly has much more of a mandate than someone who is leader of a party with one MP or someone who is not a leader at all. Labour MPs also don't have any mandate to back any government other than a Labour one. I am quite sure a large number of Labour MPs would refuse to do so even if whipped by the leadership, another reason why it would be lose-lose for Corbyn

 

[Pickman's model]

I mean, why her? Why should she get a crack at it?

can't do any worse than the current incumbent

 

[butchersapron]

I mean, why her? Why should she get a crack at it?

This is the middle class anxiety thread - you want the middle class entitlement thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is the middle class anxiety thread - you want the middle class entitlement thread.

down the corridor, second on the right.

 

[killer b]

I mean, why her? Why should she get a crack at it?

Well, she won't. It's just a nonsense article in a nonsense paper, a drunk dinner-party conversation unwisely written up the next morning. But what stops it being a proposal with legs isn't some sort of high minded question of constitutional legitimacy, it's that it wouldn't get anything more than a handful of MPs prepared to support it in parliament.