Cohen, Little Britain, 'not encouraging racial hatred but class hatred'

[Orang Utan]

Since you obviously hope that I'll demand to know the actual reason you told me to fuck off, you can fuck the fuck off.

Nope, you’re clearly too thick

 

[Doodler]

Nope, you’re clearly too thick

Fuck off Einstein!

 

[Puddy_Tat]

You can’t assume anyone’s sexuality though can you?

I'm not

Although most people assume everyone is heterosexual until proven otherwise (and in many cases then criticise people for 'coming out' and 'making a fuss about it' but that's another argument)

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm not

Although most people assume everyone is heterosexual until proven otherwise (and in many cases then criticise people for 'coming out' and 'making a fuss about it' but that's another argument)

Other people are.

 

[Humberto]

His creator said he was a caricature of all the bigoted pieces of shit he'd come across and had to endure during his working class childhood. You are most definitely supposed to laugh at him not with him (a fair few white people didn't see that) but it's not from a place of middle class sneering at the horrid little proles. However, the past is a foreign country and all that...

We see with e.g. the statue removals, that what we esteem from the past and what we acknowledge is shit is important. So, I think there needs to be less shrugging and saying this or that is ancient history, which I'm sure is not disputed here. In the case of the character Alf Garnett, or the sit-com Fawlty Towers, you always see outrage as though it's 'political correctness gone mad', that the white male is 'persecuted in his own country', or some such. We can't really consign it to the past anymore. We have to re-evaluate whether 'you can say this if it makes MOST of us laugh at not with them'. The present and future is tied to the past. So that is where social inequality, racism has to be reckoned with alongside a mass solidarity of pushing for a better future for those groups who are still discriminated against and othered.

 

[Raheem]

What's objectionable is the assumption that there's something dodgy about a man seeming a bit camp and yet being in a relationship with a woman. There could be various explanations for this mind-blowing apparent contradiction, but really none is required.

 

[ska invita]

Not a popular opinion on urban but I think Little Britain had many moments of comedy genius, in writing and performance.
Look into my eyes hypnotist, Scottish hotelier, Weight Watchers, Daffyd only gay in the village, the apoligising tory mp with this family, dennis waterman writing the theme tune and and singing the theme tune, dame sally markham knocking out romance novels, and right at the top of the pile for me VIcki Pollard.

I never felt Vicki was in any way a snearing character - Vicki is brilliant and ingenious, i love the way she talks - she's a star. Way smarter than Am I Bovvered girl, whose basically the same character. Urban loves Kathy Burke but Wayne and Waynetta are truly shit characters, with no redeaming qualities, and Waynetta going on about wanting a brown baby every week, that really stank. That really was classist. Vicki is the opposite, she's a smartarse and a gossip, and thats just some kids of a certain age. I think its done with a lot of affection. I definitely feel affection for her. I seem to remember in later episodes it got a bit cruder with her, but on the whole her monologues in a class room detention were spot on. Brilliant performance.

On the whole Matt Lucas brought a lot of fun to the show, Walliams a lot creepier.
And some of it was just grotestque - the breast feeding thing, and Eh-Eh woman ... never felt right. Walliams finger prints on those two I think.
Theres some other problematic characters but I'll leave that aside - already much discussed elsewhere.

The concept of Little Britain is a twisted version of the people of Britain as a whole, and inevitably thats going to include types of people across the classes. I dont think it was classist though. If Vicki is the evidence for it, then I dont see it. I know most people on urban disagree as theres been several threads over the years.

oh and fuck Nick Cohen

 

[seventh bullet]

We see with e.g. the statue removals, that what we esteem from the past and what we acknowledge is shit is important. So, I think there needs to be less shrugging and saying this or that is ancient history, which I'm sure is not disputed here. In the case of the character Alf Garnett, or the sit-com Fawlty Towers, you always see outrage as though it's 'political correctness gone mad', that the white male is 'persecuted in his own country', or some such. We can't really consign it to the past anymore. We have to re-evaluate whether 'you can say this if it makes MOST of us laugh at not with them'. The present and future is tied to the past. So that is where social inequality, racism has to be reckoned with alongside a mass solidarity of pushing for a better future for those groups who are still discriminated against and othered.

I never shrugged it off. I am talking explicitly about what makes something socially acceptable, and why or not that may be. Understanding something in its specific historical context doesn't mean you agree with what it is you looking at or seeking to minimise it. But please, carry on with the clunky insinuation and grandstanding.

 

[Humberto]

I never shrugged it off. I am talking explicitly about what makes something socially acceptable, and why or not that may be. Understanding something in its specific historical context doesn't mean you agree with what it is you looking at or seeking to minimise it. But please, carry on with the clunky insinuation and grandstanding.

do one

 

[Raheem]

Not a popular opinion on urban but I think Little Britain had many moments of comedy genius, in writing and performance.
Look into my eyes hypnotist, Scottish hotelier, Weight Watchers, Daffyd only gay in the village, the apoligising tory mp with this family, dennis waterman writing the theme tune and and singing the theme tune, dame sally markham knocking out romance novels, and right at the top of the pile for me VIcki Pollard.

I never felt Vicki was in any way a snearing character - Vicki is brilliant and ingenious, i love the way she talks - she's a star. Way smarter than Am I Bovvered girl, whose basically the same character. Urban loves Kathy Burke but Wayne and Waynetta are truly shit characters, with no redeaming qualities, and Waynetta going on about wanting a brown baby every week, that really stank. That really was classist. Vicki is the opposite, she's a smartarse and a gossip, and thats just some kids of a certain age. I think its done with a lot of affection. I definitely feel affection for her. I seem to remember in later episodes it got a bit cruder with her, but on the whole her monologues in a class room detention were spot on. Brilliant performance.

On the whole Matt Lucas brought a lot of fun to the show, Walliams a lot creepier.
And some of it was just grotestque - the breast feeding thing, and Eh-Eh woman ... never felt right. Walliams finger prints on those two I think.
Theres some other problematic characters but I'll leave that aside - already much discussed elsewhere.

The concept of Little Britain is a twisted version of the people of Britain as a whole, and inevitably thats going to include types of people across the classes. I dont think it was classist though. If Vicki is the evidence for it, then I dont see it. I know most people on urban disagree as theres been several threads over the years.

oh and fuck Nick Cohen

Up to a point, I'm with you. Overall, it was a clever, funny show, when it was new at least. My memory is that most of the awful content (which there definitely was) was in the third series, when they seem to have made a lamentable decision to go super-edgy with the blackface, nude fatsuits and so on.

The Vicky Pollard character, you're right, wasn't straightforwardly an attack on working-class girls, but I seem to remember it veering into that quite a bit. The contrast with Wayne and Waynetta is good one, though.

Does seem a bit odd that, from an era of Chris Evans and topless darts, Little Britain is the thing we must never go back to.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Just watched some Alf Garnett for the first time.... Bloody hell that's.. Err.. Awkward to say the least. I can see how the creator was portraying Garnett as a figure of ridicule. It reminds me of what Mel Brooks said about racism in that by ridiculing it you show how pathetic it is. I do think some of Walliams' characters in Come Fly With me were something akin to that, especially the immigration officer but I can see how people think there's someting off about him. I also agree how the pardody that Garnett is hugely backfired.

 

[Doodler]

Just watched some Alf Garnett for the first time.... Bloody hell that's.. Err.. Awkward to say the least. I can see how the creator was portraying Garnett as a figure of ridicule. It reminds me of what Mel Brooks said about racism in that by ridiculing it you show how pathetic it is. I do think some of Walliams' characters in Come Fly With me were something akin to that, especially the immigration officer but I can see how people think there's someting off about him. I also agree how the pardody that Garnett is hugely backfired.

Quite a few people at the time didn't mind being compared to Alf Garnett. He was a character, he spoke his mind etc. There was a spin-off book titled 'The Thoughts of Chairman Alf', probably meant as a Christmas stocking filler. 'Rising Damp' dealt with prejudice more successfully because far fewer wanted to be like Rigsby, and because the suave Philip was always able to make fun of him.

 

[Saul Goodman]

'Rising Damp' dealt with prejudice more successfully because far fewer wanted to be like Rigsby, and because the suave Philip was always able to make fun of him.

Rising damp was excellent.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Quite a few people at the time didn't mind being compared to Alf Garnett. He was a character, he spoke his mind etc. There was a spin-off book titled 'The Thoughts of Chairman Alf', probably meant as a Christmas stocking filler. 'Rising Damp' dealt with prejudice more successfully because far fewer wanted to be like Rigsby, and because the suave Philip was always able to make fun of him.

And in Rising Damp, at least there was a black character in the main cast for Rigsby to struggle with directly. Alf Garnett was mostly mouthing off to other white people.

And surely nobody wanted to be like Rigsby.

 

[treelover]

I was hoping there would be some discussion about what it precursed and what Cohen's article was mostly about: the demonisiation of disabled and sick people, that led to 28 billlion taken from DASP in benefits and services, and loss of life(well documented on here but very little action by the left/civil society) the rise of the sanctions regime for unemployed, etc, begun by NL, programmes like L/B and Saints and Scroungers all fed into this(note both on BBC, as was Britain on The Sick) and of course, the oh so liberal CH4's 'Benefits Street.

 

[UrbaneFox]

'openly gay' ffs

How should I have expressed that?

 

[killer b]

no-one read the article though, cause it's Nick Cohen.

 

[treelover]

you mean no one on here, I would be intrigued to see how many hits his article had, this site is a bubble like any other.

 

[Pickman's model]

you mean no one on here, I would be intrigued to see how many hits his article had, this site is a bubble like any other.

this site is a bubble unlike any other

 

[killer b]

of course I meant no-one here. I don't think anyone would claim we're anything but a bubble though, why do you keep going on about it?

'people who read nick cohen articles' are another bubble too tbf.

 

[Pickman's model]

you mean no one on here, I would be intrigued to see how many hits his article had, this site is a bubble like any other.

in the low double figures, i believe

 

[killer b]

it's 10th most popular opinion piece on the graun website atm. It's a bait topic though, so unsurprising it's had plenty hits.

 

[Doodler]

And surely nobody wanted to be like Rigsby.

You would think so but those were the days of 'Murder Casebook' magazine and Sven Hassel paperbacks, definite Rigsby reading matter.

 

[Pickman's model]

it's 10th most popular opinion piece on the graun website atm. It's a bait topic though, so unsurprising it's had plenty hits.

seems to have dropped off in the last couple of minutes

 

[andysays]

I realise it's a bit late to point this out, but as it stands, treelover's thread title actually reads as if he means Cohen and Little Britain are encouraging class hatred.

To convey his intended meaning he should have written Cohen: Little Britain "encouraging etc...

Although the title as it stands is probably more accurate, if unintentionally