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Hatred against people on disability benefits getting ramped up again

MickiQ said:
And I have no problems chipping in cash to support you, don't resent it all. The calculator clearly is meant to stir up a good bit of hate but to me has indicated that it's probably good value.
The full breakdown of how my tax is spent on welfare is (actual numbers aren't really relevant but I'll give them if you want) is.

Old Age Pensions 13.5%
Sickness and Disability 6.4%
Social Exclusion (immigrants/refugees/abusers/domestic violence) 5.9%
Family and Children (Child benefit) 2.8%
Housing 1.9%
Social Protection (bit of a catch-all) 0.6%
Survivors (bit of another catch-all) 0.1%
Unemployment 0.1% This is the one that really got me, £38 that's all I'm paying to support the unemployed? (The Telegraph would have me think they're costing me £thousands) and most other people pay less of course.

It doesn't tell me where the rest of my tax goes but surely that includes the NHS, helping the Ukrainians kill Russians, the Royals and non-existent ferries.


And you don't look at your payslip and think I wish there was a way to reduce how much tax you pay Frank? Just so happens that for me there is and for you there isn't. That's unfair yes I agree but I make no apologies for taking advantage of a system I had no hand in building.
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Tax avoidance whichever way you look at it.
Scum.
 
newme said:
What has pissed me off for several years is I have a relative that is fraudulently claiming, they could work and completed month long charity walks etc despite being apparently unable to walk 20m. While also having no issue with a day walking round a theme park and kids on shoulders. I am on about 50x his pain killers and work, I would much rather not work, as I imagine almostr everyone in the world would. But they are taking the piss, I would never report them in my life, they have kids, thats not their fault. IB would have changed a lot. The particular person concerned is highly intelligent and could easily get a wfh job but chooses not to, every single qualification criteria I have seen them break. But kids need food and stable housing.

I would rather my taxes went to helping people in need than any money was spent investigating the very small amount of fraud, even if I know a specific case. This is supposed to be a developed country, you do not treat people with potentially sever conditions like this when that is the case. Whether right or wrong the basis should be have you the ability to hold down employment The ability to get basic tasks done is bullshit, I know someone with ME who was rejected partly cos they got their kid to school, which was 50 metres away and took them an hour then most of the day resting. How else were they to get there? They tried and got fucked by the system for it. Health is not a choice for the vast majority, why is someone with problems of whatever kind treated with suspicion?
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This is the thing. For most of us, the big cheaters, tax evaders, brown envelope stuffers and dodgey backroom deals are largely invisible. Where we may see cheating is that bloke who apparently is too ill to work but somehow in the pub every day or able to go on holiday more than us etc.

Barry may well have an invisible disability meaning he can't actually work, is depressed and drinks all day to cope, goes to his sister's place in Spain once a year for a week. Or he may be taking the piss. . I may not like Barry or I may think well he's just doing what he's gotta do... But that is largely ireleveant in the context of what's happening.

not even that the existence of a few cheats at this low level are given inordant coverage, which is used to demonise anyone who needs to rely on state bennefits. But seemingly that this latest rhetoric is not so subtly dusting off the old ideas of useless mouths, drains on the state, holding back the nation. Which is dangerous and disgusting.

That wasn't arguing with you, just jumping off from what you said really.
 
Dystopiary said:
Many, many disabled people literally cannot do that.
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Then I hate to sound cruel but they are going to have a problem because articles in the Guardian aren't going to melt the hearts of the likes of Sunak and his cronies are they?
As I said I am personally happy to keep paying my share (or just some of it if you believe a couple of other posters) but if the Telegraph gets its way and enough people do decide that they would rather have lower taxes than pay for sickness and disability benefit then that is what will happen. We can both agree that will be a very dark day indeed.
Personally I'm not totally convinced there is an organised campaign to demonise disabled people on benefits. The Telegraph has always had a down on such viewing them as only slightly better than brown people but the Telegraph does not decide Govt policy. If the Tories win the next election then austerity might be back in fashion but in the meantime I don't think an unpopular Govt will do something to make itself more unpopular even with people it doesn't care about.
WouldBe said:
Don't know what MickiQ does but he probably has to pay Vat on most of his raw materials.
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Cheers for the support there but I don't buy any materials at all so don't pay VAT (other than on my accountants bill) What I do have to do is collect VAT, since all my customers are big(ish) companies including my own former employer I might add. Because they can claim VAT back against paying me I have to be VAT registered and add 20% to every bill I submit. Log it in my spreadsheet and send that off to my accountant each month.
The VAT as I get it just sits in my non-interest paying current business account. Every three months my accountant sends me a form saying Mick pay HMRC the amount on the form. So I logon into my bank and send the amount I owe to HMRC via the payee reference I have set up with my reference number. It's quite a lot actually my annual VAT bill is way bigger than my personal tax bill but it's not really my money or even the company's money it just kind of passes through giving me a cheerful wave as it does. It is an overhead that I have to do for free for HMRC but in all honesty the amount of work it generates for me is not excessive and its all part of the service as far as my accountant is concerned.
 
MickiQ said:
It is an overhead that I have to do for free for HMRC but in all honesty the amount of work it generates for me is not excessive and its all part of the service as far as my accountant is concerned.
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Perhaps you should bill HMRC for your time. ;)
 
MickiQ said:
Cheers for the support there but I don't buy any materials at all so don't pay VAT (other than on my accountants bill) What I do have to do is collect VAT, since all my customers are big(ish) companies including my own former employer I might add. Because they can claim VAT back against paying me I have to be VAT registered and add 20% to every bill I submit. Log it in my spreadsheet and send that off to my accountant each month.
The VAT as I get it just sits in my non-interest paying current business account. Every three months my accountant sends me a form saying Mick pay HMRC the amount on the form. So I logon into my bank and send the amount I owe to HMRC via the payee reference I have set up with my reference number. It's quite a lot actually my annual VAT bill is way bigger than my personal tax bill but it's not really my money or even the company's money it just kind of passes through giving me a cheerful wave as it does. It is an overhead that I have to do for free for HMRC but in all honesty the amount of work it generates for me is not excessive and its all part of the service as far as my accountant is concerned.
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Depends though. If you're on the FRS, you are actually making some money on it. A small amount admittedly, but some.
 
xenon said:
This is the thing. For most of us, the big cheaters, tax evaders, brown envelope stuffers and dodgey backroom deals are largely invisible. Where we may see cheating is that bloke who apparently is too ill to work but somehow in the pub every day or able to go on holiday more than us etc.

Barry may well have an invisible disability meaning he can't actually work, is depressed and drinks all day to cope, goes to his sister's place in Spain once a year for a week. Or he may be taking the piss. . I may not like Barry or I may think well he's just doing what he's gotta do... But that is largely ireleveant in the context of what's happening.

not even that the existence of a few cheats at this low level are given inordant coverage, which is used to demonise anyone who needs to rely on state bennefits. But seemingly that this latest rhetoric is not so subtly dusting off the old ideas of useless mouths, drains on the state, holding back the nation. Which is dangerous and disgusting.

That wasn't arguing with you, just jumping off from what you said really.
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Yeh in the end I don't care about 'Barry' benefit fraud is incredibly low even compared to just the benefits people don't claim but could. I would rather 90 people had a fraudulent claim than one person was struggling to live. I have been on benefits, it isn't fun. Certainly the free time was nice but my kid had just been born so I would take those 3 years over anything, you cannot get that back, plus I retrained while he was asleep which worked out in the end even if I was fucking knackered. Would have been anyway but I got to see my youngest boy every second of the day.

Whats the phrase, privatise the profits, socialise the losses. Seen it for as long as I knew the concept existed. The handouts to those who do not need it is unbelievable, but no Barry down the road saved his cash and went to Tenerife once, they must be investigated, some random company pops up and nabs covid funds amounting to 100x that, never mind....
 
there is a series on R4 about this I caught an episode of today, apparently John Major started the whole was on disability benefit thing.
It had some interesting info I didn't know about, like how they got some american insurance guy to come and "give advice" and the whole shitshow started there.
I'll try and find what the thing is called (aired around just after 4PM)

e2a: that's the one
 
MickiQ said:
Personally I'm not totally convinced there is an organised campaign to demonise disabled people on benefits. The Telegraph has always had a down on such viewing them as only slightly better than brown people but the Telegraph does not decide Govt policy. If the Tories win the next election then austerity might be back in fashion but in the meantime I don't think an unpopular Govt will do something to make itself more unpopular even with people it doesn't care about.
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With all due respect you need to open your eyes a bit. The coverage of people on benefits has been about for ages now - the amount of TV shows commited to showing people on Benefits in a bad light, and the press love a good benefit scrounging story. It's always been there - countless headlines growing up about how people like me were Chavs etc, and ramped up a lot prior to the Tories getting in and then during the first few years of austerity.

All of that led to PIP, ESA and UC. It was coordinated and it was planned.

There have been an increasing amount of stories and narrative about numbers of people out of work since Covid. It's building again due to the election, the difficulties with employing people since Brexit, and people on benefits and migrants are the easy low hanging fruit for governments.

As has been posted it's also people that need services that will be targeted. See it all the time. It's easy not to see when you and the people you love aren't the target.

Maybe I'm being sensitive, but your posts on here about your legal tax bill avoidance, having an accountant, and comments about crime commited by poor people bite a little bit when we're worried about the actual subject of the thread.

*I actually think I can see the point you are clumsily trying to make, but you're not helping things with your follow up posts.
 
Disgusted by the Telegraph's 'How much of your hard earned cash goes on The Disableds?' shtick.

a) My cash, like most office jobs, is not really that hard to earn
b) I am only too delighted that my good fortune in being well enough to work and being decently paid can help support those who are not, that's called a fucking society
 
Orang Utan said:
Imagine viewing tax merely as a price to pay for not being robbed
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And then imagine paying an accountant thousands to help you cheap out on that cost.

Still, I'm sure whatever these 'legitimate' tax dodgers buy with the cash they save is more important than hospitals and shit.
 
Even on right-wing cunts’ own terms, it doesn’t make sense to cut down on government spending on the various forms of social welfare. There are countless studies showing how this kind of spending ultimately produces much greater returns through reductions in the need for government spending on things like health, crime and future welfare, and increases in fiscal revenue due to things like higher educational standards. So even if you don’t give a shit about your fellow man and only care about Team UK Government (go team!), the rhetoric is counterproductive. But, I suppose, since when did right-wing frothers actually give a monkey’s about research and evidence?
 
Orang Utan said:
Imagine viewing tax merely as a price to pay for not being robbed
Click to expand...
You do say some funny things at times, I pay tax for exactly the same reason that you do, HMRC demands it off me with the threat of consequences if I don't give it to them. It's a bit more hidden for you than me since your employer acts as their heavy but it's still the same.
SpookyFrank said:
And then imagine paying an accountant thousands to help you cheap out on that cost.

Still, I'm sure whatever these 'legitimate' tax dodgers buy with the cash they save is more important than hospitals and shit.
Click to expand...
I don't pay an accountant at all, my company does because like all registered companies it has to keep a full set of audited books that HMRC can demand to see at any time in order to ensure the law is being obeyed and the proper amount of tax is being paid. Admittedly my company is owned (mostly) by me and has one solitary employee (also me). The company pays me a salary on which I pay tax and NI like everyone else and the company hands that over to HMRC along with the employer's NI contribution which all companies are required to pay on their employees.
The accountant does all the calculations for me (even sends me a monthly payslip to give to myself) and I just pay it. As well as VAT the company also has to pay corporation tax once a year (Nov in my case) on whatever profits it has made. I get so many months to pay it but I always just fork it out immediately the risk of forgetting really isn't worth it and I earn no interest on it.
The profit left in the company doesn't belong to me it belongs to the company and me just taking any of it is fraud. However like all companies mine is entitled to declare and pay dividends to its shareholders (yes you guessed it me again)
Dividends attract a lower tax rate than wages (up to a certain sum the rules are complicated) and the tax isn't paid straightaway it's paid when I dutifully fill in my annual personal tax return and HMRC send me a personal bill which I have to pay out of my own bank account.
I'm not 'dodging' any tax whether you think so or not Frank, HMRC knows about every penny the company earns (cash in hand is impossible), it knows about every penny I get personally and charges me the appropriate tax on it all.
Do I mind that much of my tax gets spend on welfare, No it's preferable to not spending it tbh. Does it nark me that some of it has recently been spent on the most expensive pantomine in the world. Well yes but have to take the rough with the smooth. Does it amuse me that you get so outraged about this? I have to admit yes which is probably bad of me but there we go.
Apols if anyone thinks this is a bit of a thread derail.
 
MickiQ said:
You do say some funny things at times, I pay tax for exactly the same reason that you do, HMRC demands it off me with the threat of consequences if I don't give it to them. It's a bit more hidden for you than me since your employer acts as their heavy but it's still the same.

I don't pay an accountant at all, my company does because like all registered companies it has to keep a full set of audited books that HMRC can demand to see at any time in order to ensure the law is being obeyed and the proper amount of tax is being paid. Admittedly my company is owned (mostly) by me and has one solitary employee (also me). The company pays me a salary on which I pay tax and NI like everyone else and the company hands that over to HMRC along with the employer's NI contribution which all companies are required to pay on their employees.
The accountant does all the calculations for me (even sends me a monthly payslip to give to myself) and I just pay it. As well as VAT the company also has to pay corporation tax once a year (Nov in my case) on whatever profits it has made. I get so many months to pay it but I always just fork it out immediately the risk of forgetting really isn't worth it and I earn no interest on it.
The profit left in the company doesn't belong to me it belongs to the company and me just taking any of it is fraud. However like all companies mine is entitled to declare and pay dividends to its shareholders (yes you guessed it me again)
Dividends attract a lower tax rate than wages (up to a certain sum the rules are complicated) and the tax isn't paid straightaway it's paid when I dutifully fill in my annual personal tax return and HMRC send me a personal bill which I have to pay out of my own bank account.
I'm not 'dodging' any tax whether you think so or not Frank, HMRC knows about every penny the company earns (cash in hand is impossible), it knows about every penny I get personally and charges me the appropriate tax on it all.
Do I mind that much of my tax gets spend on welfare, No it's preferable to not spending it tbh. Does it nark me that some of it has recently been spent on the most expensive pantomine in the world. Well yes but have to take the rough with the smooth. Does it amuse me that you get so outraged about this? I have to admit yes which is probably bad of me but there we go.
Apols if anyone thinks this is a bit of a thread derail.
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Shame you haven’t been able to declare yourself a non-dom or setup another company offshore.

I always find it incredible that a. people can brag about how they are doing their best to reduce their contribution to the overall good. And b. How complete wrong’uns whether landlords or those setting up companies to reduce their tax burden are so widely accepted as part of a community.
 
MickiQ said:
You do say some funny things at times, I pay tax for exactly the same reason that you do, HMRC demands it off me with the threat of consequences if I don't give it to them. It's a bit more hidden for you than me since your employer acts as their heavy but it's still the same.

I don't pay an accountant at all, my company does because like all registered companies it has to keep a full set of audited books that HMRC can demand to see at any time in order to ensure the law is being obeyed and the proper amount of tax is being paid. Admittedly my company is owned (mostly) by me and has one solitary employee (also me). The company pays me a salary on which I pay tax and NI like everyone else and the company hands that over to HMRC along with the employer's NI contribution which all companies are required to pay on their employees.
The accountant does all the calculations for me (even sends me a monthly payslip to give to myself) and I just pay it. As well as VAT the company also has to pay corporation tax once a year (Nov in my case) on whatever profits it has made. I get so many months to pay it but I always just fork it out immediately the risk of forgetting really isn't worth it and I earn no interest on it.
The profit left in the company doesn't belong to me it belongs to the company and me just taking any of it is fraud. However like all companies mine is entitled to declare and pay dividends to its shareholders (yes you guessed it me again)
Dividends attract a lower tax rate than wages (up to a certain sum the rules are complicated) and the tax isn't paid straightaway it's paid when I dutifully fill in my annual personal tax return and HMRC send me a personal bill which I have to pay out of my own bank account.
I'm not 'dodging' any tax whether you think so or not Frank, HMRC knows about every penny the company earns (cash in hand is impossible), it knows about every penny I get personally and charges me the appropriate tax on it all.
Do I mind that much of my tax gets spend on welfare, No it's preferable to not spending it tbh. Does it nark me that some of it has recently been spent on the most expensive pantomine in the world. Well yes but have to take the rough with the smooth. Does it amuse me that you get so outraged about this? I have to admit yes which is probably bad of me but there we go.
Click to expand...

Why are you arguing tax matters with a bunch of lefties, let alone a fucking moron like Plank?
 
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