'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What you posted made little sense to me, hence my response.

Can you clarify it?

When G20 or something like that comes to town the activists are all encouraged to get along and protest.

When Bildeberg is doing the rounds we are all told it is only right wing frothers who oppose them.

It's weird because they both so clearly represent elite interests. Can you explain, cos I cant.

 

[Blagsta]

When G20 or something like that comes to town the activists are all encouraged to get along and protest.

When Bildeberg is doing the rounds we are all told it is only right wing frothers who oppose them.

It's weird because they both so clearly represent elite interests. Can you explain, cos I cant.

Who encourages activists to protest against G20? All of the left? You sure about that?

 

[smokedout]

Please also specify the "anti-semite" charge against the Zeitgeist maker, my assessment of him as left-green tilted didn't come from his row with jones but from his call for a "resoure based economy" and support of the Venus Project

film split into three parts

1st - religion is evil, all descended from an evil old religion, evil, evil, evil

2nd - money changers - evil, really bad, scretive, trying to control the world evil, turned into bankers, evil, evil, evil

3rd - bombed our towers, killed innocents, bankers you know, came from money changers you know, probably follow evil religion, control the world you know, insert favourite blood libel here

we need a solution to this evil, a final solution

get the subtext now

 

[Bernie Gunther]

When G20 or something like that comes to town the activists are all encouraged to get along and protest.

When Bildeberg is doing the rounds we are all told it is only right wing frothers who oppose them.

It's weird because they both so clearly represent elite interests. Can you explain, cos I cant.

That seems a very odd assertion. Here's Chomsky on the Trilateral Commission.



Now I can certainly see an argument saying that e.g. effective opposition to the WTO is more important than protesting either the G20 or Bilderberg (in the unlikely event they organised a Bilderberg conference anywhere protesters could get near it) but that's because the WTO (or the IMF or whatever) is the direct instrument for enforcing the neo-liberal capitalist order rather than a place where the ruling class sustained by that order are chilling out and plotting.

So it's not like stuff like Bilderberg, CFR, Trilateral Commission or whatever aren't potentially interesting and its not like (well I for one anyway) wouldn't cheer if a horde of CT'rs stormed Bilderburg and strung up the participants from nearby trees. It's just that in the general scheme of things, the specifics of ruling class plots, no matter how thrilling it would be to speculate about them, are generally far less significant than the structural tendencies of neo-liberal capitalism in terms of causing harm.

Edited to add: the stuff with the lizards though, does strike me as pointless, if not actively counterproductive.

 

[smokedout]

There's a lot in that, certainly the right try and hijack CT movements. It doesnt mean that a given CT itself is automatically founded on nothing or that the left shouldn't be involved if appropriate.

Reactionaries can rant about "conspiracies" - that is mostly what your point demonstrates. It doesnt deal with the fact that radicals and progressives also can and do.

the radicals and progressives who do ime are rarely radical and progressive once you scratch the surface

 

[Jazzz]

Well, it's not clear to me how you believe that the left are 'played for fools' or why they might want to 'get over it'

I mean I could speculate, but when I try I don't find the results terribly convincing, so it seems unfair to assume that you mean what I'm guessing.

It seems you understood my post entirely. We may not agree, that's fine, but there is no communication issue.

 

[Blagsta]

It seems you understood my post entirely. We may not agree, that's fine, but there is no problem with comprehension of my post.

Can you clarify Bernie's point "how you believe that the left are 'played for fools' or why they might want to 'get over it'" please?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

smokedout



"1st - religion is evil, all descended from an evil old religion, evil, evil, evil"

It is mostly about "solar messiah" cults. Doesn't single out jews remotely, doesnt attack jews.

2nd

""money changers - evil, really bad, scretive, trying to control the world evil, turned into bankers, evil, evil, evil"

Focuses on demonstrable fraudulent practices of financeers. Doesn't single out jews remotely, doesnt attack jews. Are all critics of capitalism anti-jewish? Was Marx? Is Chomsky?

3rd

"bombed our towers, killed innocents, bankers you know, came from money changers you know, probably follow evil religion, control the world you know, insert favourite blood libel here"

Pupports that the official story is riddled with holes. Doesn't single out Jews, doesn't attack Jews.

You are as bad as any conspiracy theorist, summising something from nothing and assuming people are too dim to see a truth that is plain to your eyes.

Get your head round the fact that most of the time people are slagging off bankers it is bankers they are slagging off. Who kicked the money changers out of the temple? A jewish guy. Who banned usury long before Islam was on the scene? You guessed it.

CTers have a range of targets for often misplaced ire: Masons, The Vatican, Aliens, different categories of Illuminati. I have very rarely heard the Jews in that mix, zionists yes but Jews no. Or is zionism is another subtext code word in your conspiracy theory that conspiracy theorists are anti-semites?

"we need a solution to this evil, a final solution"

You need to stop making stuff up and being offensive.

 

[smokedout]

CTers have a range of targets for often misplaced ire: Masons, The Vatican, Aliens, different categories of Illuminati. I have very rarely heard the Jews in that mix, zionists yes but Jews no. Or is zionism is another subtext code word in your conspiracy theory that conspiracy theorists are anti-semites?

"we need a solution to this evil, a final solution"

You need to stop making stuff up and being offensive.

if you havent noticed by now that the new age/conspiracy theory/occult/wibble scene isn't riddled with crypto (and often quite blatant) anti-semetism then you really havent been paying attention

 

[Blagsta]

The bit I bolded, a "resource based economy". What is it?

Anyone?

 

[Jazzz]

Can you clarify Bernie's point "how you believe that the left are 'played for fools' or why they might want to 'get over it'" please?

No

 

[Blagsta]

No

As I thought, it was a meaningless soundbite.

 

[Dillinger4]

The anti-Semitism is structural. It is an essential part of it. They just use different words, but the structure of anti-Semitism is there plain as day.

 

[smokedout]

The anti-Semitism is structural. It is an essential part of it. They just use different words, but the structure of anti-Semitism is there plain as day.

precisely, in the case of zeitgeist, why link those things, what has (nonsense) ideas about sunworshippers got to do with bankers and 911?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

precisely, in the case of zeitgeist, why link those things, what has (nonsense) ideas about sunworshippers got to do with bankers and 911?

The stuff about sunworshippers has next to bugger all to do with Judaism, not that we should let facts get in the way of gibbering paranoia. I saw Vince Cable have a go at the banks the other day. He must hate the Jews. It's in the subtext.

 

[DotCommunist]

His website is no doubt riddled with links to far right ant anti smite stuff.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The anti-Semitism is structural. It is an essential part of it. They just use different words, but the structure of anti-Semitism is there plain as day.

anti-semitism is in the structure?

We can't suspect a clandestine group is trying to stitch things up or that people are misled without it being anti-semite / Jewish? Leaving aside the obvious mis-use of the term "anti-semite", that's just bizzare.

Or are you saying that is an anti-semite case with stuff built around it to mislead us into thinking it is anglo american empire, skull and bones, MIC, masons or some other unJewish entity. Clever disguise stuff, like something could be something it isn't so long as some one says so, or it is alledged to be in the subtext. Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Seeing as a lot of the occult stuff goes back to ancient Sumeria I suppose they were really jews and I should pretend to hate them and then cover it up (apart from in the subtext of course).

Most of the first part of that film targets the iconography of orthodox "Christianity". But christians are jews, everyone knows that. It's in the subtext.

Obviously no one can comment on banking without it being a subtextual attack on the Jews, Marx especially hated Jews. That was in the subtext too.

The banks do nothing wrong and anyone who says different hates Jews. That's good to know.

911 - none of the CTers ever cite Masonic stuff, MIC or various intelligence agencies. They may say that stuff but actually they mean Jews. They say something very different from what they mean and expect us all to pick up on it.

Obviously any criticism of the Israeli state or Mossad is almost as bad as wanting to do the holocaust over again. Milliband the jew hater, that's what we should call him after he told them off over the assassination / passports thing.

People who sympathise with Palestinians - they hate Jews too, especially in the subtext. They dont have to say it when someone else can make it up on their behalf.

A very common theme of CTers is the link between nazis and aspects of modern US government via Paperclip etc and behaviour in South America through The School Of The Americas. What they must really mean is that the nazis were jews. in the subtext.

I used to think "10 steps to a fascist America" by Naomi Wolf and "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein were among the best and most accessible of anti-right wing texts of the last few years. That was before people here helped me see the light. As attacks on statists clampdowns and capitalist exploitation they are probably just another bunch of sub-text attacks on Jews. Oh how Ms Wolf and Ms Klein must hate Jews, maybe even as much as Chomsky.

Icke and others seem to think Queen Elizabeth is a shape shifting lizard or something. Must mean "jewish" - could be the German blood I suppose. Yeah - the queen is actually Jewish, anyone will tell you that.

Gosh this is fun, we can make up any amount of unmitigated paranoid horseshit.

 

[audiotech]

Threads on here speculating on whether 'conspiraloons are in the ascendancy' cause me some concern, otherwise the conspiraloons are of no concern to me whatsoever.

 

[existentialist]

Anyone?

Heh, I'm having a similar exchange on another site where someone's chosen to refer to those who don't swallow his line as "sheeple", but has suddenly become extremely coy when asked to explain what he means by that.

I think these people are sometimes too happy to throw the epithets around without thinking, and then become slightly embarrassed when they're asked to clarify their position.

 

[smokedout]

Gosh this is fun, we can make up any amount of unmitigated paranoid horseshit.

something you seem quite fond of

and you've missed the point completely btw, but never mind eh, lets keep things simple

 

[kyser_soze]

'Resource based economy' lol. I remember the last mega thread by some eejit talking about the Venus project and how we'd all be rescued by something good happening, done by some people.

 

[butchersapron]

So, those prominent left-wing CTers. How many have qe come up with? None isn't it?

BTW Naomi Wolf wannabe queen of the Tea Party, puts the leading CTers very clearly on the right.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

something you seem quite fond of

and you've missed the point completely btw, but never mind eh, lets keep things simple

The point is that you think people can be accused of anti-semitism with no evidence, and if there's no evidence it can just be summised out of nothing and put down to "subtext" or "structure".

"we need a solution...a final solution" you indicated was the underlying message - an absolutely disgusting slur and more OTT than anything in my last wibble saga.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Blagsta

The "resource based economy" as put forward in Zeitgeist and Venus Project films is Utopian indeed, not a million miles from some optimistic socialist models. But at least it's an attempt to move away from increasingly asbstracted and silly incarnations of capitalism which represent ever more serfdom for the majority of the global population.

 

[butchersapron]

The point is that you think people can be accused of anti-semitism with no evidence, and if there's no evidence it can just be summised out of nothing and put down to "subtext" or "structure". Yuck.

Well here's a more fleshed out examination of the use of classical anti-semitic tropes etc in the three parts of the film.

 

[butchersapron]

Blagsta

The "resource based economy" as put forward in Zeitgeist and Venus Project films is Utopian indeed, not a million miles from some optimistic socialist models. But at least it's an attempt to move away from increasingly asbstracted and silly incarnations of capitalism which represent ever more serfdom for the majority of the global population.

Is it heck - there's no model actually put forward. It could not be more abstract. That's the entirety of its content - the phrase itself. It's totally apolitical.

 

[smokedout]

The point is that you think people can be accused of anti-semitism with no evidence, and if there's no evidence it can just be summised out of nothing and put down to "subtext" or "structure". Yuck.

did david icke never say that a jewish cabal instigated world war two?

were the protocols of zion mnot used as anti-semetic propaganda?

is icke's book The robot Rebellion not based almost entirely on the protocols?

does fritz springmeier not claim that the illuminati are headed by the Rothschilds?

does alex jones not repeatedly babble on about the Rothschild/Warburgs?

is there no similarity between the baby eating bankers of Icke and the blood libels used by antisemites throughout history?

have kollerstrom and many others attempted to deny the holocaust as part of a great conspiracy?

conspiracy theory is riddled with classic anti-semetism, that doesnt mean everyone believing it or even espousing it is an anti-semite, and those that are have got much better at hiding it behind israel, zionism etc

that doesnt mean if you dig a little, or meet and talk to some of your gurus you wont find some very nasty stuff

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Your froth was againt Zeitgeist. It was bollocks. I'll answer the rest of your post later. You have no idea who my "gurus" are or aren't. You are making up shite again and I don't need patronising lectures on anti-semitism.

 

[William of Walworth]

Stop being so bloody defensive taffboy.

You yourself have at times acknowledged, quite sensibly, that the more 'eccentric' espousers of some of the wilder conspiracy theories are a liability to those theories you see as justified being taken seriously.

You'd be doing yourself a much better favour by accepting that some CTers are anti semitic or come close to it, and that Icke has made dodgily borderline anti semitic references.

It's not accusing you personally of being anti semitic to point this out, and you're doing yourself no favours by reacting as if people are making such accusations. They're not.

 

[Blagsta]

Blagsta

The "resource based economy" as put forward in Zeitgeist and Venus Project films is Utopian indeed, not a million miles from some optimistic socialist models. But at least it's an attempt to move away from increasingly asbstracted and silly incarnations of capitalism which represent ever more serfdom for the majority of the global population.

But no one can say what it actually is or how it will operate.