'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

[existentialist]

Well, one way to look at this is that they're enormously useful to people who are actively pursuing real conspiracies.

This thought hit me one day when I was reading about the US stealth fighter. It was developed in the deep black, even to the point where it was operational in squadron strength before Reagan finally announced it. Some US military planners were apparently scared that the Soviets might be provoked into a first strike if they knew the US was developing planes that could breeze through their air defence network like it wasn't there. So the need for secrecy was intense.

They developed the plane at the air base which is home to Area 51, near Roswell New Mexico

By an odd coincidence, they were doing this around the time all those alien autopsy videos appeared.

What do you think happened to all the stories about funny looking aircraft that didn't show up on radar?

"useful idiots". It's a good phrase.

 

[existentialist]

I'm still slightly confused as to why Nick Griffin's antecedents are at all relevant. Is the implication that his dad's some kind of tool of the Illuminati or something?

I think I'm just trying to get a handle on whether we're merely in conspiracy theorist territory, or full-on, balls-out, honk-the-red-nose-and-get-squirted-by-the-buttonhole conspiraloonery...

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I'm still slightly confused as to why Nick Griffin's antecedents are at all relevant. Is the implication that his dad's some kind of tool of the Illuminati or something?

I think I'm just trying to get a handle on whether we're merely in conspiracy theorist territory, or full-on, balls-out, honk-the-red-nose-and-get-squirted-by-the-buttonhole conspiraloonery...

It may be relevant, it may not. The point is that many a CTer froths about the Masons and might thus be uncomfotable with backing Griffins nasty party, which is comming 2nd in a poll on Icke's website (probably packed and targetted by the fash I daresay)

To have a father high up is a close enough connection to raise eyebrows.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

"useful idiots". It's a good phrase.

To be fair, I got some facts mixed up there (being lazy and not checking beforehand like I usually do, I got my UFO nuts mixed up)

I think the basic point is still solid though (as do the CIA apparently, see post above)

 

[existentialist]

It may be relevant, it may not. The point is that many a CTer froths about the Masons and might thus be uncomfotable with backing Griffins nasty party, which is comming 2nd in a poll on Icke's website (probably packed and targetted by the fash I daresay)

To have a father high up is a close enough connection to raise eyebrows.

I did google Nick Griffin's name and "masons", but what came back was the most ludicrous collection of OTT speculation and random fact-assembling. I assumed that it was all coming from some hysterical backwater of the Internet, given that the terminology they were using to describe Pa Griffin's masonic connections was pretty inaccurate, and even at face value seemed to imply that the most significant thing about his masonic career was that it had lasted a long time.

Well, I suppose st*rmfront counts as a "hysterical backwater"

 

[smokedout]

There's a guy called Freeman whose background is with Rainbow Tribe. His politics are hippy anarchist leaning, he's more into occult ritualism and goings on in space.

no, he's hippy bollocks leaning, there's a big difference

 

[existentialist]

no, he's hippy bollocks leaning, there's a big difference

Well, I laughed

 

[elbows]

I think the whole UFO thing was connected to many different aspects of important stuff that was going on at the time. There are likely some military uses but beyond that in wider society the whole lot got mixed in with the space race, march of progress, cold war fears, propaganda & escapism, uncertainty & hope that comes from change, the promise of a life of leisure, the yearning for new frontiers, with sci-fi in general capturing the popular imagination. Also a nice modern twist for an age where religion sits uncomfortably in the presence of scientific knowledge, the heavens have a different meaning now.

Not that humanity is actually managing to keep up with the future it imagined for itself 60 years or more ago. As Paul Merton would say, where's my jetpack?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I did google Nick Griffin's name and "masons", but what came back was the most ludicrous collection of OTT speculation and random fact-assembling. I assumed that it was all coming from some hysterical backwater of the Internet, given that the terminology they were using to describe Pa Griffin's masonic connections was pretty inaccurate, and even at face value seemed to imply that the most significant thing about his masonic career was that it had lasted a long time.

Well, I suppose st*rmfront counts as a "hysterical backwater"

Better to google for his father's name. There is stuff there far beyond St*rmfront. Not just a long time, but pretty high up. I don't care much, you might care less. But if it puts some people off voting for them I'm all for highlighting it to those people.

 

[existentialist]

Better to google for his father's name. There is stuff there far beyond St*rmfront. Not just a long time, but pretty high up. I don't care much, you might care less. But if it puts some people off voting for them I'm all for highlighting it to those people.

Hmm. The old "enemy of my enemy" gambit, then?

All strikes me as a little naive - if there's really such a good case for not voting BNP (and there is), is it really necessary to resort to picking up silly titbits like this to bolster the argument? Aren't there far better reasons for opposing the BNP than the fact that the head dude's dad happens to spend his Tuesday afternoons with his trouser leg rolled up and a pinny on?

ETA: I see he got promoted.

(el Griffin is in the middle)

He's now a "Past Grand Junior Overseer", as of 2008. Source: http://www.northwalesmark.co.uk/news.html

 

[elbows]

If you are trying to stop those sort of conspiraloons from voting BNP then it would make sense to give them the kind of useless, misleading 'evidence' that they thrive on. Its some of the most dumbed down politics you can find, its Duplo compared to the Lego Technics of real politics.

 

[smokedout]

Oh yeah, the guy behind Zeitgeist is clearly more of the green / left school than the right wing school. He and Alex Jones had a right old ding dong which you will be glad to have been spared Butchers.

having a bit of a scrap with alex jones does not make you left wing either, particularly when your main political achievement is producing a film which is little more than thinly disguised anti-semetism

20 years ago the argument of leftist conspiracy theory would have been ludicrous, one thing thwe CTers pretty much agreed on was a communist conspiracy, usually controlled by the Jews

conspiracy theory has always been reactionary, a tool used by authoritarians to belittle or demonise progressive ideas and forces

this was true with the suppression of the Bavarian illuminati, the baby eating jewish commies of the 20s and 30s, mcCarthyism after the war and the whole gay mafia, feminazi bullshit that is still around today

and if you look at most CT it's attacks on the left continue to this day, with the denunciation of the green movement, the maastrict conspiracy, the reaction to universal healthcare in the states and the accusations that the anti-capitalist protests in the late 90s were some kind of illuminati front to spread disorder

its not just a western thing, conspiracy theories about the jews, rothschilds and americans are just as prevalent in the middle east as conpiracy theories about secret plots to instill sharia in the UK - wherever you find strict authroritariansim then conspiracy theories about 'the others' will be one of the tools propping it up

so its really not surprinsing that most CTers lean towards authoritarian parties like UKIP and the BNP

 

[Blagsta]

There's a guy called Freeman whose background is with Rainbow Tribe. His politics are hippy anarchist leaning, he's more into occult ritualism and goings on in space.

Webster Tarpley is something of a centre-leftist, fond of union power and stuff like the tobin tax.

Other than that I am struggling a bit, as you can surely tell, to find a prominent CT analyst from a solid left background, but I see no reason why it would be logically precluded. I certainly know a fair few rank and file GP members who are left wing and interested in CTs.

lol, political they ain't

 

[Jazzz]

lol, political they ain't

they should hurry up.

 

[Blagsta]

hurry up and do what?

 

[Jazzz]

hurry up and do what?

It's true that 'the left' - or at least its intellectual protagonists - seem particularly resistant to the notion that the beast they consider themselves opposed to plays us all for fools. They should hurry up and get over it.

 

[Blagsta]

It's true that 'the left' - or at least its intellectual protagonists - seem particularly resistant to the notion that the beast they consider themselves opposed to really plays them for fools. They should hurry up and get over it.

What does this mean?

 

[Jazzz]

What does this mean?

I don't see anything challenging to understand in my post

 

[Blagsta]

You have no answer as to what you mean. As per.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It's true that 'the left' - or at least its intellectual protagonists - seem particularly resistant to the notion that the beast they consider themselves opposed to plays us all for fools. They should hurry up and get over it.

no Jazz. WTO, IMF, G20 et al are trampling on rights and destroying the planet. Their opponents are noble comrades in the struggle.

Bildeberg is just a bunch of bankers, aristos, politicians and media heads on a jolly. Nothing to see there. Their opponents are frothing lunatics wot believe in lizards.

 

[Blagsta]

no Jazz. WTO, IMF, G20 et al are trampling on rights and destroying the planet. Their opponents are noble comrades in the struggle.

Bildeberg is just a bunch of bankers, aristos, politicians and media heads on a jolly. Nothing to see there. Their opponents are frothing lunatics wot believe in lizards.

Are you on crack?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I don't see anything challenging to understand in my post

Well, it's not clear to me how you believe that the left are 'played for fools' or why they might want to 'get over it'

I mean I could speculate, but when I try I don't find the results terribly convincing, so it seems unfair to assume that you mean what I'm guessing.

 

[Blagsta]

I don't see anything challenging to understand in my post

Ahhhh, you edited your reply.

Pretend I'm stupid. Spell it out to me what you mean.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

having a bit of a scrap with alex jones does not make you left wing either, particularly when your main political achievement is producing a film which is little more than thinly disguised anti-semetism

20 years ago the argument of leftist conspiracy theory would have been ludicrous, one thing thwe CTers pretty much agreed on was a communist conspiracy, usually controlled by the Jews

conspiracy theory has always been reactionary, a tool used by authoritarians to belittle or demonise progressive ideas and forces

this was true with the suppression of the Bavarian illuminati, the baby eating jewish commies of the 20s and 30s, mcCarthyism after the war and the whole gay mafia, feminazi bullshit that is still around today

and if you look at most CT it's attacks on the left continue to this day, with the denunciation of the green movement, the maastrict conspiracy, the reaction to universal healthcare in the states and the accusations that the anti-capitalist protests in the late 90s were some kind of illuminati front to spread disorder

its not just a western thing, conspiracy theories about the jews, rothschilds and americans are just as prevalent in the middle east as conpiracy theories about secret plots to instill sharia in the UK - wherever you find strict authroritariansim then conspiracy theories about 'the others' will be one of the tools propping it up

so its really not surprinsing that most CTers lean towards authoritarian parties like UKIP and the BNP

There's a lot in that, certainly the right try and hijack CT movements. It doesnt mean that a given CT itself is automatically founded on nothing or that the left shouldn't be involved if appropriate.

Reactionaries can rant about "conspiracies" - that is mostly what your point demonstrates. It doesnt deal with the fact that radicals and progressives also can and do.

Please also specify the "anti-semite" charge against the Zeitgeist maker, my assessment of him as left-green tilted didn't come from his row with jones but from his call for a "resoure based economy" and support of the Venus Project (which Freeman has amusingly criticised for the distinct lack of people in much of the graphic visioning)

 

[Blagsta]

Well, it's not clear to me how you believe that the left are 'played for fools' or why they might want to 'get over it'

I mean I could speculate, but when I try I don't find the results terribly convincing, so it seems unfair to assume that you mean what I'm guessing.

I think it's 'cos Jazzz is going further and further to the right.

 

[Blagsta]

There's a lot in that, certainly the right try and hijack all CT movements. It doesnt mean that the CT itself is founded on nothing or that the left shouldn't be involved if appropriate.

Reactionaries can rant about "conspiracies" - that is mostly what your point demonstrates. It doesnt deal with the fact that also can and do.

Please also specify the "anti-semite" charge against the Zeitgeist maker, my assessment of him as left-green tilted didn't come from his row with jones but from his call for a "resoure based economy" and support of the Venus Project (which Freeman has amusingly criticised for the distinct lack of people in much of the graphic visioning)

Which no one has ever been able to explain what it means.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Are you on crack?

Are you going to deal with the inherent contradictions of how the left react so differently these institutions or is insulting people just easier? To make this post more effective in the eyes of some I will say "nobcheese".

 

[Blagsta]

Are you going to deal with the inherent contradictions of how the left react dso differently these institutions. Or is insulting people just easier? To make this post more effective in the eyes of some I will say "nobcheese".

What you posted made little sense to me, hence my response.

Can you clarify it?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Which no one has ever been able to explain what it means.

Explain what what means sorry?

 

[Blagsta]

Explain what what means sorry?

The bit I bolded, a "resource based economy". What is it?