butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Or the consipraloons could be a bunch of hard-right types.
'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?
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Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Oh that *is* interesting ... Well spotted.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I'm also surprised greens scored 0%, especially given the links between environmentalism and fascism
They think climate change is a global conspiracy, so they probably reckon the greens are run by the same lizard-loving Mi5 guys who bumped Diana off etc.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
heh, that talking clock site is proper mental, all about diana. I never got loons' obsession with diana - i mean don't they hate muslims and immigration, despite thinking that diana was murdered because her boyrfiend was muslim
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I never got loons' obsession with diana - i mean don't they hate muslims and immigration, despite thinking that diana was murdered because her boyrfiend was muslim
Seeing as how they are constantly saying that muslims aren't primarily responsible for organising high profile attacks they might well be less frothing and lunatic than neo cons et al. Anyone in favour of freedom should not have a problem with migration.
The support for Palestine is often big among these people, though it could be transmuted anti-semitism.
What worries me is that "truthers" pride themselves (believe it or not) on being somehow discerning and intelligent. That so many would be apparently dim enough to endorse fascism just makes me hope they are fascists who are using the truth movement rather than truthers being used by fascists.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
There's another option - the 'truthers' being hard righters.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Reading through that thread, there's a fair bit of:
anti-globalisation, NWO etc. = nationalism
... from several of the posters who explain why they're going BNP/UKIP.
anti-globalisation, NWO etc. = nationalism
... from several of the posters who explain why they're going BNP/UKIP.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I don't see why a person who comes across some aspect of the "truth" movement and finds something in it would be anymore inclined to being of the right than of anywhere else. (Someone who is already of the hard right will find what they are looking for, anyone can find what they are looking for if they look hard enough)
What might be common with the general example is an anti-establishment sentiment. This would obvioulsy be ill channeled by going down reactionary avenues but perhaps those are the avenues that are seen to be there. Elsewhere on these boards the failures of the left to fill the anti-establisment vacuum is one of the main topics of discussion.
A person (say) in their twenties who is one of the growing number of people who knows exactly what international banking elites are about, the extent of CIA black-ops, Operation Paperclip and all the rest of it...they are hardly likely to vote Labour, Conservative or Liberal. Green might have been on the list once but the fundemental CT error on climate theory puts paid to that
(the error is a half truth - that human caused climate change is a scam to tax and control us. In fact we do impact the environment massively in a way that is used to tax and control us. Carbon trading etc. will be used by the banks to appropriate wealth, spin new derivatives and have greens take the blame)
There is no strong left of labour party to speak of and no one on the left is making a strongly heard anti banker case. The fascists appear to have made more of anti banking sentiment than the left have, that is dismal.
When you consider how big the anti global capitalist left used to appear to be in this country,it is a big failing that we are not attracting the massive amount of people who daily realise that the global political scene is an elitist stitch-up.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I think you are likely to get a fair mix of different sorts of people who feel disenfranchised in one way or another and fall under the spell of conspiracy theorists. There are plenty of paranoid people, nationalists, libertarians and right-wingers of other flavours, but I dont think that poll tells us much. I dont frequent those forums but I did just skim through many pages of the poll thread and there are several people who say they will probably vote green. There are plenty who dont think there is a point in voting, some people passionately disagreeing with them.
There are some overtly pro-BNP or UKIP people on the thread, but there are also people complaining that every election the BNP target their forum and start posting a load of BNP propaganda so I think its quite possible the poll has been distorted.
It doesnt surprise me that the BNP would target conspiracy theorists as potential BNP voters, for numerous reasons. Not least it highlights something that I am always keen to harp on about - be careful with cynicism because it can be exploited.
There are some overtly pro-BNP or UKIP people on the thread, but there are also people complaining that every election the BNP target their forum and start posting a load of BNP propaganda so I think its quite possible the poll has been distorted.
It doesnt surprise me that the BNP would target conspiracy theorists as potential BNP voters, for numerous reasons. Not least it highlights something that I am always keen to harp on about - be careful with cynicism because it can be exploited.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
There's no need for it to be Jew-hating, though some probably is.
I think the truthers are a bit more used to frothing loons and hard-rightists being among them and can very often discern the bullshit.
You don't have to study I/P in depth to see the injustice or the place of the issue in global politics and supposed "end time" scenarios.
From a US isolationist POV I don't think they like the fact that one government (Israel) appears to have so much influence over the US and take so much money in military aid to essentially function as a proxy state. The rhetoric that "conspiracy theorists" employ against any attack on Iran would be at home in any more leftist meeting.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That' doesn't really deal whether the consipraloons are right-wingers or not. And by that don't mean being manipulated by the hard right, i mean just be hard-right in their right with no string pulling. I can see why you'd shy away from reaching that conclusion because it will in part reflect back upon you in some ways - but i've seen more idelogical racism or hard-right stuff (holocaust denial for example) on those icke boards and the other popular ones than i've ever seen on EDL forums or sites like that - and i've seen it put out there not by shadowy string pullers but by very prominent and respected (in the loon community) people. The Kollerstrom incident brought a lot of that to light.
You suggest that "Someone who is already of the hard right will find what they are looking for", i'm suggesting that they might have done just that in this community.
You're more clued about this than me, what's your impression of the social composition of the 'truthers' or other conspiracy types?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
This is utter bollocks. Though common utter bollocks.
There is such a thing as international banking elites, if you have watched the news since late 2008 you may have a vague idea of the fraud and blackmail they have been up to.
the phrase was long-since appropriated as code-word for "jews" by the far right, but when one faction co-opts a phrase it shouldn't blind us to the true and less nefarious simple meaning of it.
I have no idea how many of them are jewish and I dont care. Authentic jewish law forbids usery anyway. To think that people cant discern between an accurate description and hard right code-word propaganda is pretty insulting.
How else is one to refer to elites who involved in banking at an international level?
Should we let rigged casino capitalism continue the confiscation of wealth just in case anyone constructs some sense of being offended by a possible interpretation of the terminology used? That indeed would be useful idiocy.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Increasingly I would say that social composition tends towards the random - anyone who might stumble over something down the back of the internet and follow it up - curious, mistrusting and that kind of thing.
That doesnt suggest to me one type of social composition in terms of class or ethnicity etc.
Politically there probably is a pull towards libertarianism, some people actually think UKIP speak to this (strange but true) There is no reason to me why this shouldnt be a left libertarianism, but the non anarchist left hasn't spoken enough to those issues.
One aspect of "anti globalised" politics is the perception that the nation state can provide a bulwark against the development of it. The nation state can be presented as more democratic and accountable, it is depressing indeed that some people have contrived to come up with something LESS democratic and accountable. Thus anti-global sentiment can feed and be fed on by petty isolationist nationalism
OTOH - a truly libertarian approach would call for localised self rule and seek to dissolve all levels of hierarchy and discrimation, not just swap one for another (hence UKIPs claim for our indepence is absurd because they would have us as under the control of international capitalists as anyone else)
In summary: I dont detect disproportionate bias for social class or ethnicity, but the movement can be pulled to the right for some small reasons. The real reason why it would drift that way though would be a failure of the left to be engaged in the dialectic and thus pull it back.
As for more holocaust denialism on Icke than on EDL boards: Kneejerk conspiracists will attack anything presented by the mainstream straight off the bat and always assume the worst. It's a real intellecutal problem in the movement. But I suspect again that this is far rightists using the CT movement rather than CTers being of the far right.
EDL are nominally somewhat pro Jewish if anything, they certainly make a point of having Israeli flags on their demos and are far more in favour of War on Terror rhetoric than the BNP. It's very possible that holacaust denial on an EDL discussion would be modded.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Why do some groups become highly visible and get the labels 'truth movement' or 'conspiracy theorist' applied to them? Because it is the nature and language of their reaction and response to 'discovering the truth' which makes them highly visible in the first place, and its a reaction that tends to have far more in common with a range of right-wing positions, at least in this age.
The various conspiracy theories themselves may well have some appeal across the broader political spectrum, but the reaction wont be the same, the scapegoats & language will be different, and fuels for the flames such as nationalism, racism, and governments spoiling the free market will naturally attract those with certain views and completely repel others.
Speaking very generally I expect people of the left to be less likely to have a sudden realisation that the system which was apparently so pure and good is actually evil, and then start drooling and expressing outrage when they discover the truth. This is because they are less likely to have had faith in the systems in the first place, as opposed to those on the right who have, at least in their minds, a golden age to hark back to where their values were enshrined in institutions & laws, and where the loss of that stuff must be due to shadowy forces manipulating things.
The nature of the hatred of the state is also likely to vary depending on whether you are left or right. Whilst the reality may well be that states have tended to help right-wing positions become reality more than left wing ones, many of the victories the left managed in the past, much of the progress we've made on issues of equality, is bound up and enforced by state institutions. So many on the left may not be keen to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Meanwhile some on the right may be tempted to believe that they dont need the state much in order to live in a world governed by free markets, never mind the reality of what the state does for them, they dont like other forces challenging the supremacy of wealth. There is some contradiction in what Im saying in this paragraph compared to the previous one, but hey ho its messy.
The various conspiracy theories themselves may well have some appeal across the broader political spectrum, but the reaction wont be the same, the scapegoats & language will be different, and fuels for the flames such as nationalism, racism, and governments spoiling the free market will naturally attract those with certain views and completely repel others.
Speaking very generally I expect people of the left to be less likely to have a sudden realisation that the system which was apparently so pure and good is actually evil, and then start drooling and expressing outrage when they discover the truth. This is because they are less likely to have had faith in the systems in the first place, as opposed to those on the right who have, at least in their minds, a golden age to hark back to where their values were enshrined in institutions & laws, and where the loss of that stuff must be due to shadowy forces manipulating things.
The nature of the hatred of the state is also likely to vary depending on whether you are left or right. Whilst the reality may well be that states have tended to help right-wing positions become reality more than left wing ones, many of the victories the left managed in the past, much of the progress we've made on issues of equality, is bound up and enforced by state institutions. So many on the left may not be keen to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Meanwhile some on the right may be tempted to believe that they dont need the state much in order to live in a world governed by free markets, never mind the reality of what the state does for them, they dont like other forces challenging the supremacy of wealth. There is some contradiction in what Im saying in this paragraph compared to the previous one, but hey ho its messy.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
elbows
Well-Known Member
Im not convinced that people in their twenties have a better understanding of banking elites now than in the past. There is greater outrage about bankers at the moment for obvious reasons, and there are a range of unenlightening theories full of little else than emotion, which is not a great replacement for proper institutional analysis, analysis which may have been more likely in the past when there was a more functional left.
If theyve been lapping up the words of Alex Jones and Mr Icke then your assumption that they wont vote Labour, Liberal or Tory might be safe, but again I think there are plenty of people who will not have been sent to such extremes by the scandals and quackery of the day, and may hold their nose and vote for a mainstream party.
The assumption that the climate change errors will put many people who would ever have seriously considered voting green off from doing so is flawed if you ask me, as those most easily swayed by these climate change message scandals were largely looking for an excuse not to believe in that stuff in the first place.
Your comments about it being a tax scam are things I would expect from a right winger, not to say that some people on the left do not also have such suspicions, but the way you express them smells right-wing to me. On a related note the not-fully-mainstream theory that I most subscribe to is that of peak oil, I wonder if this one attracts more left-wingers than right-wingers because it fits the left better in all sorts of ways and has some serious incompatibilities with the right?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
elbows
Excellent post overall.
Why do some groups become highly visible and get the labels 'truth movement' or 'conspiracy theorist' applied to them? Because it is the nature and language of their reaction and response to 'discovering the truth' which makes them highly visible in the first place, and its a reaction that tends to have far more in common with a range of right-wing positions, at least in this age.
Good point. I would prefer to see the movement portray itself as "anti-lies" if anything.
The various conspiracy theories themselves may well have some appeal across the broader political spectrum, but the reaction wont be the same, the scapegoats & language will be different, and fuels for the flames such as nationalism, racism, and governments spoiling the free market will naturally attract those with certain views and completely repel others.
True. Though it doesn't and shouldn't rule out the left from participating in the debate and leaving a rich seam of debate open to the right to co-opt, which in some way is clearly happening.
Speaking very generally I expect people of the left to be less likely to have a sudden realisation that the system which was apparently so pure and good is actually evil, and then start drooling and expressing outrage when they discover the truth. This is because they are less likely to have had faith in the systems in the first place, as opposed to those on the right who have a golden age to hark back to where their values were enshrined in institutions & laws...
Important point well made. There are many "revalations" of the CT movement that people like Zinn, Pilger and countless more have been on about for decades. There are other areas, like "Club of Rome" documents and Codex Alimentarius where the left are far less critical (though CA is a common bugbear for greens)
and where the loss of that stuff must be due to shadowy forces manipulating things.
The loss of "golden age" values doesn't much bother me because most of it is founded on reactionary myth. Many changes are due to welcome liberalism and social democracy which then get scapegoated by the right as associated with the shadowy forces. Liberalism can be used as cover by the elite though which makes things more confusing. the EU could never be sold as an anti-democratic neo-liberal project. It has to use social liberalism and fluffy stuff to sell the rhetoric.
But the fact that there are manipulating forces are not remotely in doubt. The banking heist and bailouts, the increasing marriage of corporation and state demonstrate this strongly. These are partly rooted in the same forces alluded to by Eisenhower in his MIC speech as well as Kennedy. There are aspects of occultism which are hard to refute. The left doesn't tend to go there because they are often scoffing of anything smacking of religious or spirutual discourse. The irony regarding the pupported occult preoccupancies among some aspects of the elite is that much of it is in common with the nazi occult obsession. The Bush link to nazis is very strong. Any anti neo-con anti NWO type should be scathing of the far right, and very many actually are.
Excellent post overall.
Why do some groups become highly visible and get the labels 'truth movement' or 'conspiracy theorist' applied to them? Because it is the nature and language of their reaction and response to 'discovering the truth' which makes them highly visible in the first place, and its a reaction that tends to have far more in common with a range of right-wing positions, at least in this age.
Good point. I would prefer to see the movement portray itself as "anti-lies" if anything.
The various conspiracy theories themselves may well have some appeal across the broader political spectrum, but the reaction wont be the same, the scapegoats & language will be different, and fuels for the flames such as nationalism, racism, and governments spoiling the free market will naturally attract those with certain views and completely repel others.
True. Though it doesn't and shouldn't rule out the left from participating in the debate and leaving a rich seam of debate open to the right to co-opt, which in some way is clearly happening.
Speaking very generally I expect people of the left to be less likely to have a sudden realisation that the system which was apparently so pure and good is actually evil, and then start drooling and expressing outrage when they discover the truth. This is because they are less likely to have had faith in the systems in the first place, as opposed to those on the right who have a golden age to hark back to where their values were enshrined in institutions & laws...
Important point well made. There are many "revalations" of the CT movement that people like Zinn, Pilger and countless more have been on about for decades. There are other areas, like "Club of Rome" documents and Codex Alimentarius where the left are far less critical (though CA is a common bugbear for greens)
and where the loss of that stuff must be due to shadowy forces manipulating things.
The loss of "golden age" values doesn't much bother me because most of it is founded on reactionary myth. Many changes are due to welcome liberalism and social democracy which then get scapegoated by the right as associated with the shadowy forces. Liberalism can be used as cover by the elite though which makes things more confusing. the EU could never be sold as an anti-democratic neo-liberal project. It has to use social liberalism and fluffy stuff to sell the rhetoric.
But the fact that there are manipulating forces are not remotely in doubt. The banking heist and bailouts, the increasing marriage of corporation and state demonstrate this strongly. These are partly rooted in the same forces alluded to by Eisenhower in his MIC speech as well as Kennedy. There are aspects of occultism which are hard to refute. The left doesn't tend to go there because they are often scoffing of anything smacking of religious or spirutual discourse. The irony regarding the pupported occult preoccupancies among some aspects of the elite is that much of it is in common with the nazi occult obsession. The Bush link to nazis is very strong. Any anti neo-con anti NWO type should be scathing of the far right, and very many actually are.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I dont call it a tax scam because I am a right winger who distrusts the principles of taxation per se.
I call it a tax scam because climate-criminal politicians are clearly ready to use green issues as cover for their own agenda. Carbon trading, for one example, threatens to be the foundation for a future derivatives bubble, marketising the licence to pollute is about as ungreen as it gets.
Human damage to the planet is irrefutable. The Club of Rome documents explicitly state that green issues would be used to build an agenda for more global governence. If there had been a green result of that I wouldnt be half so pissed off, but the deforestation, depletion of the seas and other eco crimes of the capitalists continue unabated. Ringfenced taxes for green causes would be fine, but genuine ringfencing is a very rare thing.
So CTers say human caused climate change is bollocks. Despite some nuances beyond the standard "debate", it isn't bollocks.
CTers say climate change is being used by the elite for an agenda beyond that which is pupported. This appears to be true.
They are perpetuating a half-truth - often as dangerous as a lie.
As corporation and state are increasingly wedded it becomes less traditionally "right wing" to oppose tax anyway. Our taxes now go increasingly to privateers, warmongers and bankers. There's bugger all that is left wing about that.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Cheers
Dont expect them to debate on the same sites, under the same figureheads/movements, focussing on the same scapegoats or using the same language as the conspiracy theorists we are generally referring to here. Why would they when they can debate the issues they feel important to them, in the manner of their choosing, elsewhere. The left have enough trouble with factionalism at the best of times, when only dealing with people on their part of the spectrum.
Well this is where discussions between us on these subjects usually gets stuck. Powerful forces exercising their power in many ways is not in doubt, has never been in doubt, is not something new, is only thinly disguised, and is at the heart of politics, the way humans organise. The thin pretences that seek to dress everything up in noble terms and to deny the failings and corruptability of man and systems are not new either. Throughout much of recorded history we can imagine people wrestling with the contradictions of their belief systems, states, movements. To paint ones will as the best way, the natural way, the liberal way, progress, or the preservation of common decency is not new either.
Its messy and complicated not just because of the games that power players engage in, be they state, corporate or other, but because of the duality of things, the difficulty of making any sort of practical reality from notions of good and bad. The black & white nature of most conspiracy theories is the ultimate turnoff for me, makes a mockery of any truth they stumble upon along the way.
Symbolism goes down well with people, as does a good story with clearly defined sides. This fact is well known and is used to bind people all the time, be it to a state institution, a religion, a cult, a gang of truthseekers. So the occult stuff spices up the crusade against the NWO no end, and also plays to a potential audience who have been indoctrinated with a religious sentiment. And it does seem that in the USA some of those on the left who end up going for the right-wing conspiracy theories are brought there by way of some new age traditions from Americas not too distant past which have been siezed upon. It can also be seen as a way of coming to terms with and expressing in language the feeling of disenfranchisement. Really helps turn up the emotional fuel for the scapegoating too - dehumanise the opponents.
The far right get some hate from more moderate anti-NWOers because of the usual repulsion to some of their extreme views. However a good deal of the hate for Bush could be explained as simple factionalism, or the usual story where someone of the right gets into power but they still go along with the supposed 'NWO agenda' so they must be declared evil and a sham. The actual realities require more political analysis and an acceptance that even those in power have to take account of other powers, an eternal struggle we witness all the time, a balancing act rather than one omnipotent force having complete control over the storyline.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Just found a priceless bit of dialogue on the Climate Research Unit hacked e-mail thread on those forums.
"Uh guys, why are we suddenly believing what Fox News says?"
... a bit of uncomfortable umming and ahhing takes place, then someone comes up with the following resolution for the poor chap's cognitive dissonance ...
"It's like this see ...
Our Rothschild lizard overlords control *both* the Bush-Murdoch neo-Nazi and the socialist-green-UN factions within the NWO and right now the minions of each faction are at war with each other. So we can believe the Murdoch press on this subject, because they're attacking the socialist-green NWO minions."
"Uh guys, why are we suddenly believing what Fox News says?"
... a bit of uncomfortable umming and ahhing takes place, then someone comes up with the following resolution for the poor chap's cognitive dissonance ...
"It's like this see ...
Our Rothschild lizard overlords control *both* the Bush-Murdoch neo-Nazi and the socialist-green-UN factions within the NWO and right now the minions of each faction are at war with each other. So we can believe the Murdoch press on this subject, because they're attacking the socialist-green NWO minions."
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Who's NG?
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Is that what's happening though? Or is it that a bunch of alienated citizens are latching on to some vaguely plausible sounding, easily digested, and in some ways thrillingly exciting ('We know what's *really* going on') alternative interpretations of the modern world, some of which are coming from the right.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
The Cyclops Fuhrer himself.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
To be honest I know plenty of relatively apolitical people who've adopted these views not because they think lizards control the world or anything but because it's what's on offer, it's relatively common place type of conspiracy theory without having to think too much about class analysis or anything of that sort.
I might make another animation soon about conspiracy theories lol.
I might make another animation soon about conspiracy theories lol.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
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