Charlottesville aftermath discussion thread...

[ViolentPanda]

Interesting: After Cable Street, when barricades and sheer numbers prevented the fascists from being able to do their march, the membership of the BUF grew, Mosely's tactic of presenting his party as victims of Jewish-Communist violence apparently worked, even though the only violence was police trying to clear the way for the nazis march by attacking the antifascists. How many of those new recruits were prepared to act to help their cause who knows but joining up as a fascist back in 1936 presumably took a bit more than clicking a button.
View attachment 113701

Needs to be taken in context, though. High unemployment, and as the letter states that most new recruits were in east London, a significant chance that recruiters used the old "they're taking your jobs" about the Jews, Laskars and Somalians that worked on the docks and in the dockside warehouses.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Antifascist mimes.

and probably antifascist memes too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

the alternative is to let them march. No matter how you oppose the far right liberals and centrists will label you 'just as bad' and quite breathlessly talk about 'extremeist ideologies' and horsehoe theories. We've seen the rise in this already.

There's only one solution to horseshoe theory - punch whoever spouts the turgid bullshit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Jon Ronson said when the left start acting like the right the battle is already lost.

Trump, Brexit, potentially 12 years of Tory rule. Something is winning support for the right...

Jon Ronson is a whiny middle class liberal schmuck.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Basically, ive seen first hand how the actions of Antifa fucks off those they are aiming to protect the rights of

I've spent more than 30 year on and off participating in and observing antifascist activities, and your experience is not my experience. It wasn't my great-grandmother's experience when Mosley's scum were on the streets either. I think you're shaping the evidence to fit your thesis, rather than altering your thesis to fit the evidence. It's what apologists like yourself always do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unless you can effectively kill everyone of the nazi prats, giving them a black eye and a bloody nose is gonna do fuck all to stop them. Probably help recruit for them if anything.

You are giving them the attention they badly crave.


Well a couple of years ago there was a demonstration outside Lunar House, me and some colleagues went past to have a nose at lunchtime. I was in a group with a black girl, muslim girl in a headscarf and an Iranian lad. First some antis with black hoods and faces covered with scarves on their faces ran to the BNP nobs and started throwing punches - they were pushed away but were pacing about like Jake le Motta despite being real weedy little tits. Arrogant arseholes who had real tickets on themselves.
Now, i have a shaved head and sleeve tattoos. One of the antis got in my face saying "who are you looking at?". I told him to fuck off and who the fuck did he think he was. I pointed out who my pals were and he skulked off head down.
My pals all agreed these men were pricks to a man, and we all ignored the BNP. Effective strategy - we ignored the BNP as a nation and they have fucked off

And you generalise this to mean that antifascists are like this.

You cockwipe.

 

[albionism]

This is good too. Excellent "panicking coward" stuff.

Spoiler

 

[albionism]

sorry, but I think he / she's right this time.
everyone who isn't completely outraged is (at least partially) blaming this on the "violent leftists / antifa" and I don't mean a small obscure group of people, I mean probably 45% of the population here. (as in "they started it, were there to incite violence, are just as hateful as Nazis"...you get the point)

regardless of the fact that they have no clue what they're talking about, antifa really does need to tone it down for these upcoming rallies in order to not give this sentiment any more fodder. but, I also think they know this...hopefully.

Antifa saved lives last Saturday.

 

[DotCommunist]

the toolkit of resisting a state in power is not the same or having the effect desired when directed at nazis and street right warriors. imo. The noble resistance isn't worth much but the moral victory when it comes to it. Braver people than me made that resistance though so I am not casting shade. And that is not unimportant, I call pacifists brave because they believe with body and mind what I would love to be true. But it isn't.
And so I have been bubbling with rage at these pricks running down a DSA woman and yes feeling fucking tribal. I want the discussion of how to shadow these people to not be known to me, I want the walk-home-from-work hammer ambushes done to be unknown to me. But by god I hope they are being done.
They should be living under 'check the bottom of your car in the morning' fear. Big talk from someone with little ability to effect this reality but I desire it nonetheless

 

[Andrew Hertford]

the alternative is to let them march. No matter how you oppose the far right liberals and centrists will label you 'just as bad' and quite breathlessly talk about 'extremeist ideologies' and horsehoe theories. We've seen the rise in this already.

the toolkit of resisting a state in power is not the same or having the effect desired when directed at nazis and street right warriors. imo. The noble resistance isn't worth much but the moral victory when it comes to it. Braver people than me made that resistance though so I am not casting shade. And that is not unimportant, I call pacifists brave because they believe with body and mind what I would love to be true. But it isn't.
And so I have been bubbling with rage at these pricks running down a DSA woman and yes feeling fucking tribal. I want the discussion of how to shadow these people to not be known to me, I want the walk-home-from-work hammer ambushes done to be unknown to me. But by god I hope they are being done.
They should be living under 'check the bottom of your car in the morning' fear. Big talk from someone with little ability to effect this reality but I desire it nonetheless

What form should this violence take? Should you just walk up to someone on a march and hit them with a hammer? Will that stop them being racist?

It sounds like you’ve lost the plot. You’re effectively advocating the use of intimidation and violence to win an ideological argument.

There's only one solution to horseshoe theory - punch whoever spouts the turgid bullshit.

 

[Athos]

What form should this violence take? Should you just walk up to someone on a march and hit them with a hammer? Will that stop them being racist?

It sounds like you’ve lost the plot. You’re effectively advocating the use of intimidation and violence to win an ideological argument.

You don't seen to understand the point of physical force antifascism. The idea isn't to educate them; it's to deny them control of the streets. It's one important aspect of a multi-faceted response to the threat of the growth of fascism. Because, if they're allowed to control the streets, they'd become emboldened, appear strong and attract more and more to their ranks, and, in particular, present a significant risk of serious harm to many people in that area.

 

[emanymton]

Jon Ronson said when the left start acting like the right the battle is already lost.

Well some bloke called Steve I meet once said otherwise, so now I don't know what to think.

Oh hang, yes I do. The left do not act like the right. The far right use violence to to intimate communities and to establish dominance, and control over the streets. The left use violence to counter that, to protect the communities that the right would attack.

 

[dylanredefined]

Still can't get over this image of the Neo Nazis. Terrifying.

call of duty fools.

yeh. no telling where people who can't put knee-pads on their knees might end up shooting.

That lot is the militia they are not nazis supposedly there to halp defend free speech. Just what a volatile situation needs a bunch of guys with guns.
Oh, and the loon with the knee pads spent a small fortune on trousers with built in knee pads as used by special forces. which I'm not allowed to wear
I don't get the appeal dressing up like a soldier and shooting guns is fun. Dressing up like a soldier and standing around a demo why not just join the national guard and get paid to do that?

 

[bimble]

What form should this violence take? Should you just walk up to someone on a march and hit them with a hammer? Will that stop them being racist?

It sounds like you’ve lost the plot. You’re effectively advocating the use of intimidation and violence to win an ideological argument

It's you who don't understand. It is not about debating these people trying to win them over / convincing them to 'not be racist'. It's just necessary to prevent them from organising, by any means necessary. That is a lesson of history.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's you who don't understand. It is not about debating these people trying to win them over / convincing them to 'not be racist'. It's just necessary to prevent them from organising, by any means necessary. That is a lesson of history.

Yeh well obvs it's a mite late for that

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Andrew Hertford D'wards

You're wrong. It's as simple as that.

I don't know what your experience or memory of previous street encounters with fascists have been but very few people with any such experience would agree with you. I could have been talking about you when I said:

What happens is that time passes between the fascists deciding to take back the streets. When they do, of course some people, usually too young and idealistic to remember, always ask if meeting violence with violence is the way to go, and those who say 'yes' are the ones who can remember the last time(s). The fash takes a beating and retreats. It works to that extent. Kerb-stones and all that.

However, I do think that the US is different. Those kids in polo shirts are open to persuasion, perhaps, and confronting armed militias is something else altogether. And the US takes a dim view of factions fighting it out. So does the UK, but it doesn't get so antsy about it.

The opinion of "The Mob" is a fact of life in UK politics. Has been for centuries. Not everything gets decided in Parliament or in bien-pensant committees: that my black friends could walk around with their white friends, that gays could have a visible social life and so on was 'decided' in the streets. And by no means necessarily by the application of reason.

 

[maomao]

What form should this violence take? Should you just walk up to someone on a march and hit them with a hammer? Will that stop them being racist?

If you do it hard enough it will. Fuck fascists.

 

[DotCommunist]

It sounds like you’ve lost the plot.

Sounds like you never found it. BTW I've not suddenly lost my head because of charlotsville. This isn't new to most leftists, nor is your take-me-ball-home liberalism that thinks these people give a fuck about what you think

 

[Pickman's model]

What form should this violence take? Should you just walk up to someone on a march and hit them with a hammer? Will that stop them being racist?

depends on the level of force used.

It sounds like you’ve lost the plot. You’re effectively advocating the use of intimidation and violence to win an ideological argument.

lest we forget

surely it's better to bash a few fascists now rather than many tens of thousands later

 

[DotCommunist]

depends on the level of force used.


lest we forget

surely it's better to bash a few fascists now rather than many tens of thousands later

isn't there a photo of this where flagmans got an arm ringed with looted watches

 

[Pickman's model]

isn't there a photo of this where flagmans got an arm ringed with looted watches

*foraged* watches, if you please

 

[DotCommunist]

*foraged* watches, if you please

if only herr hitler had stuck to selling his scribbles for sustenance.

 

[DotCommunist]

why not just join the national guard and get paid to do that?

you might have to shoot protesters like the kent state massacre. Anyway these people have a relationship with the state that is based on profound mistrust of the state's ability to protect a constitution. They don't like the state (except the ones that are paid informants obvs)

 

[butchersapron]

I reckon some people could do with a read of this on the ground article about the necessity for a diversity of tactics and how this played out over the weekend. If you can make post after post attacking the people there and their actions you could at least spend 5 minutes reading this.

 

[8den]

That lot is the militia they are not nazis supposedly there to halp defend free speech. Just what a volatile situation needs a bunch of guys with guns.
Oh, and the loon with the knee pads spent a small fortune on trousers with built in knee pads as used by special forces. which I'm not allowed to wear
I don't get the appeal dressing up like a soldier and shooting guns is fun. Dressing up like a soldier and standing around a demo why not just join the national guard and get paid to do that?

Most right wing militias have ties to Neo Nazis and White Supremacists.

They turned up armed with assault weapons to march with Nazis, they're fucking Nazis.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Tennessee WordSmith

Smith nails the whataboutery going on with the confederate flag and statues shit atm - extract below :

".... So when you hear about flags and statues coming down, take note of the date given as to how long they had stood. Almost all of them went up in one of these two periods (the Lee statue at the heart of the protests in Charlottesville, VA, went up in 1924; the Confederate Soldier statue toppled by a crowd in Durham, NC, went up in 1925- incidentally, the two peak years of the KKK). Know what that means? It means they are not really about the Civil War at all, they are about white supremacy and opposition to civil rights. And they are on government property. And by the way, that Confederate battle flag that Bree Newsome climbed up that flagpole to take down two years ago? It went up over the SC statehouse in 1962.


Historical context is important."

 

[Idris2002]

An old friend of mine and her teenage daughter in Teen Vogue:

Here's What You Need to Know About Fascism

I haven't the heart to tell them that UAF is an SWP front.

 

[bimble]

This was written by a member of clergy, a committed pacifist, explaining what he experienced at Charlottesville and how its changed his view.



if too small to read its here

 

[ffsear]

The violence that I have seen from the 'anti-fascists' in this country, almost makes me despise them as much as the fascists. You cannot claim any shred of moral superiority, whilst committing criminal acts on the street.

If you watch Ross Kemp extreme worlds. There's an episode where he goes to a march/counter demonstration in Texas. He's standing on the sidelines just observing and basically has to be removed from the area by security because a small section of antifa try to attack him just because of his appearance.

 

[Idris2002]

If you watch Ross Kemp extreme worlds. There's an episode where he goes to a march/counter demonstration in Texas. He's standing on the sidelines just observing and basically has to be removed from the area by security because a small section of antifa try to attack him just because of his appearance.

He could stayed at home for that.