Charlottesville aftermath discussion thread...

[danny la rouge]

CRI - it seems you edited 'chided' to 'scolded' during the time I was replying, so I'll just say here the same applies. I wasn't scolding bimble, I was responding to the author she quoted. And I was quite clear where my point was directed so please stop your bollocks right now. Stop your misrepresentation of honest points, and stop dividing humanity into ethnic census categories to the benefit of racists.

 

[danny la rouge]

That you could read that as chiding exposes your terrible politics again. I'm doing my best to be polite, because you've just expressed some of the most counterproductive sentiments I've ever read from a supposed ally.

Again, absolutely. Let's shout this from the rooftops.

 

[JimW]

I mean, it was a call for everyone to take responsibility and it's read as an attack on victims? Madness.

 

[danny la rouge]

CRI - it seems you edited 'chided' to 'scolded' during the time I was replying, so I'll just say here the same applies. I wasn't scolding bimble, I was responding to the author she quoted. And I was quite clear where my point was directed so please stop your bollocks right now. Stop your misrepresentation of honest points, and stop dividing humanity into ethnic census categories to the benefit of racists.

Oh, and for the avoidance of doubt, that was chiding and scolding.

 

[butchersapron]

...and an er...cairding?

 

[JimW]

...and an er...cairding?

Berate My Post

 

[andysays]

Trump has unleashed this vermin. I never expected to see a scene like this in the US.

That pretty much shatters the nonsense that Americans and ex-pat Americans are somehow uniquely knowledgable about American politics and history, doesn't it...

 

[andysays]

Sorry, but scolding people who are/have been at the sharp end of systemic oppression and violence for having a gut reaction to it because "all decent human beings should find it equally disgusting," makes me feel queasy. I'm not saying the post was meant to be malicious and certainly not a "not all gentiles." Intended or not though, things like this still re-centre the issue away from the experience of the people actually experiencing the abuse first hand.

The idea of "human solidarity" is great, but history tells us that too often when Jewish people, people of colour, women, etc. have counted on others to back them, to stand with them, to speak for them, they've been let down, badly. Is chiding someone for their gut reaction to bigotry really going to instill more faith that "human solidarity" will keep them safe?

You really are a nasty piece of misrepresenting work, aren't you?

No one is scolding or chiding anyone's reaction, emotional or otherwise, so you can fuck right off with your snidey digs at danny la rouge's post, as with your regular accusations of racism at various other posters.

How nice of you to explain to bimble what's needed to oppose anti-semitic bigotry. To echo an earlier post of your's on this thread or one of the others, goy-splaining much?

 

[danny la rouge]

How nice of you to explain to bimble what's needed to oppose anti-semitic bigotry. To echo an earlier post of your's on this thread or one of the others, goy-splaining much?

Literally laughed at that. But, precisely.

 

[danny la rouge]

And, incidentally, CRI, still no apology to maomao, (whose family were recently racically abused at their own door, and are now fearful in their own home). Try some self respect and just apologise for your unfounded allegation.

 

[seventh bullet]

Sorry to hear about your recent trouble with racist abuse at your home, maomao. Sounds nasty.

 

[bimble]

Sure, but I think the author is probably having the fundamental response I referred to (human solidarity) distorted by Racecraft.

Me too, I've got a bad case of the same problem, probably due to family stuff, especially the 'teachings'' I got very early on from camp-survivor granny. She couldn't help it but it's a poisonous thing to do to your children, teach them to be afraid, that they can't trust the world can't rely on 'them' so we (the separate we as defined by the racists themselves) must cling only to each other etc.
I want free of it and its work in progress but of course its not easy to erase that sort of early fearsome conditioning.
But yeah didn't see any chiding in danny la rouge 's post, quite the opposite, the more often that message that we all humans bear the same responsibility gets acted on and shown to be true the weaker the hold of that shitty us/them fear-filled indoctrination that's the root of the whole stinking problem.

 

[maomao]

Thanks but it's not a big deal currently. It's no longer a secret that mrs maomao is with child at the moment and we'll be stressing about it again when my weekend shifts roll round cause she's not keen on answering the door anymore.

ETA: to danny la rouge and seventh bullet

 

[danny la rouge]

Thanks but it's not a big deal currently. It's no longer a secret that mrs maomao is with child at the moment and we'll be stressing about it again when my weekend shifts roll round cause she's not keen on answering the door anymore.

ETA: to danny la rouge and seventh bullet

A) Congratulations: that's lovely news. B) Glad the unpleasantness has receded down your list of priorities. All the best to you and yours.

 

[danny la rouge]

Me too, I've got a bad case of the same problem

We all do to a certain extent: it'd be astonishing if we didn't. We're social animals; we even construct our sense of self using a continual feedback loop from those around us (family, friends, society at large). We're like bats, only we're not (literally) finding our way, we're constructing The Self. So, if society is bent out of shape by racism, it's hardly surprising if the distortions show up in our selves, the way reflections in a hall of mirrors distort our images.

The healthy response is to recognise that in ourselves, and to have the insight to see that it's society that's distorted when we may get it wrong, not an individual failing we have. I think that's the sort of thing seventh bullet was alluding to by saying "solidarity isn't always easy". The distorted images of ourselves and others that society presents as real are sometimes so ingrained we don't recognise them for what they are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The state of it though, hadn't seen this video before.

"

Bunch of dogfucking shitcunts.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Trump has unleashed this vermin. I never expected to see a scene like this in the US.

As I've had to type way too many times in the last week, Are you fucking kidding?
You've got at least 90 years of this mass shitcuntness happening. It's not a phenomenon "unleashed" by Trump, it's a phenomenon with deep roots that Trump is attempting to use to his own ends. These motherfuckers and hand-bangers have been around, loud and proud in the US, for most of the 20th century and all of the 21st century, so far. The only difference is that you liberals, you haven't deigned to notice these scumbags before, you've just brushed them off as a minority opinion that doesn't affect you. Now that they do, you're implying they're something new.

 

[J Ed]

Sorry, but scolding people who are/have been at the sharp end of systemic oppression and violence for having a gut reaction to it because "all decent human beings should find it equally disgusting," makes me feel queasy. I'm not saying the post was meant to be malicious and certainly not a "not all gentiles." Intended or not though, things like this still re-centre the issue away from the experience of the people actually experiencing the abuse first hand.

The idea of "human solidarity" is great, but history tells us that too often when Jewish people, people of colour, women, etc. have counted on others to back them, to stand with them, to speak for them, they've been let down, badly. Is chiding someone for their gut reaction to bigotry really going to instill more faith that "human solidarity" will keep them safe?

How is it even possible to get to the position where someone saying that everyone, rather than its immediate targets, should object to anti-Semitism makes you 'queasy'?

Is this the point where actively opposing racism is actually racist, as we saw with some of the Westboro Baptist Church-style denunciations of Heather Heyer from the extreme end of identity politics liberals, or is that just the next step?

 

[J Ed]

As I've had to type way too many times in the last week, Are you fucking kidding?
You've got at least 90 years of this mass shitcuntness happening. It's not a phenomenon "unleashed" by Trump, it's a phenomenon with deep roots that Trump is attempting to use to his own ends. These motherfuckers and hand-bangers have been around, loud and proud in the US, for most of the 20th century and all of the 21st century, so far. The only difference is that you liberals, you haven't deigned to notice these scumbags before, you've just brushed them off as a minority opinion that doesn't affect you. Now that they do, you're implying they're something new.

It's not as if what Trump said, that the far-right and the socialist left are the same, wasn't a mainstream Democratic let alone Republican talking point right up until the point that Trump said it and then it became a heretical statement that all good people know is wrong to say. In reality of course, it was just as offensive before he said it.

 

[danny la rouge]

To milk Racecraft for a few more passages:

"Racecraft operates like a railroad switch, diverting a train from one track to another. It is unlike a railroad switch, however, in that the switchman seldom controls where the train ends up. It may end up on a siding in the middle of nowhere, its passengers stranded."

"The first and fundamental step [...] is to observe racecraft in action, study its moves, listen to its language, and root it out. Only after doing so will we be prepared for the still harder work of tackling inequality. Are we up to it?" (pp/289/290)


"Few self-styled conservative politicians in the United States today dare argue on principle (at least in public) that hereditary inequality and subordination should be the lot of the majority. Instead, those prepared to defend inequality do so on the basis of a bastard free-market liberalism, with racial, ethnic, or sexual determinism tacked on as an inconsistent afterthought. Meanwhile, many well-intentioned believers in truth and justice succumb to biological determinism, the armor of the enemy, when they see around them the ugly signs that racism continues to thrive in our world.

[...]

They thereby come much closer than they realize to the views of those they ostensibly oppose.

[...]

But race is neither biology nor an idea absorbed into biology by Lamarckian inheritance. It is ideology, and ideologies do not have lives of their own. Nor can they be handed down or inherited: a doctrine can be, or a name, or a piece of property, but not an ideology. If race lives on today, it does not live on because we have inherited it from our forebears of the seventeenth century or the eighteenth or nineteenth, but because we continue to create it today.

[...]

Those who create and re-create race today are not just the mob that killed a young Afro-American man on a street in Brooklyn or the people who join the Klan and the White Order. They are also those academic writers whose invocation of self-propelling "attitudes" and tragic flaws assigns Africans and their descendants to a special category, placing them in a world exclusively theirs and outside history [...]

They are the academic "liberals" and "progressives" in whose version of race the neutral shibboleths difference and diversity replace words like slavery, injustice, oppression, and exploitation, diverting attention from the anything-but-neutral history these words denote. (pp145/6/7)"

(My emphasis).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Solidarity is hard. No-one said it was easy. It's even harder with actively creating the conditions and racial division that the far-right lick their chops at.

I've heard people on the liberal left round here claiming that Trump has, by mistake, opened a Pandora's Box with the US far right. I'm not so sure. I'm more inclined to agree with you that the state is actually creating these divisive conditions. Now, people may ask why, but - to reclaim some words that CRI misused - history tells us that tyranny often starts with the imposition of "special measures" to deal with a crisis - often a manufactured crisis - such as mass civil unrest. I am not sanguine that Trump isn't setting up his own little "state of emergency" in order to clear the decks of his opponents and/or anyone who has the goods on him. I'm scared that in 10-20 years time, Families in the US will have their own thousands-long lists of desaparecidos.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That pretty much shatters the nonsense that Americans and ex-pat Americans are somehow uniquely knowledgable about American politics and history, doesn't it...

 

[ViolentPanda]

You really are a nasty piece of misrepresenting work, aren't you?

No one is scolding or chiding anyone's reaction, emotional or otherwise, so you can fuck right off with your snidey digs at danny la rouge's post, as with your regular accusations of racism at various other posters.

As "politics", it's all they've got, a politics where their views are correct but static. A politics where any deviation from their "party line" is to be denigrated in the most egregious way.

How nice of you to explain to bimble what's needed to oppose anti-semitic bigotry. To echo an earlier post of your's on this thread or one of the others, goy-splaining much?

It's always amusing when the goyim tell us how to combat the Judaeophobes, like we haven't had several thousand years to get the hang of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not as if what Trump said, that the far-right and the socialist left are the same, wasn't a mainstream Democratic let alone Republican talking point right up until the point that Trump said it and then it became a heretical statement that all good people know is wrong to say. In reality of course, it was just as offensive before he said it.

Well quite. I've heard (a few) British anarchos talking about horseshoe theory for years - usually as a way of illustrating that left and right are equally pointless ideologies, but it's never really held water for anyone with the ability to think critically, and it's offensive to anyone with that ability. It's just another one of those bundles of chaff that party-politicians chuck out in order to distract the masses from what's actually happening.

 

[maomao]

As I've had to type way too many times in the last week, Are you fucking kidding?
You've got at least 90 years of this mass shitcuntness happening. It's not a phenomenon "unleashed" by Trump, it's a phenomenon with deep roots that Trump is attempting to use to his own ends. These motherfuckers and hand-bangers have been around, loud and proud in the US, for most of the 20th century and all of the 21st century, so far. The only difference is that you liberals, you haven't deigned to notice these scumbags before, you've just brushed them off as a minority opinion that doesn't affect you. Now that they do, you're implying they're something new.

There really is no point discussing things in detail with 'feudalism is capitalism' TomUS. His understanding of politics and history literally goes no further than the last three decades in the US.

 

[J Ed]

As "politics", it's all they've got, a politics where their views are correct but static. A politics where any deviation from their "party line" is to be denigrated in the most egregious way.

What I'm fascinated by is how non-static their politics are to be honest, they seem to change the second what is acceptable or unacceptable in op-eds or the mouths of mainline politicians changes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What I'm fascinated by is how non-static their politics are to be honest, they seem to change the second what is acceptable or unacceptable in op-eds or the mouths of mainline politicians changes.

I'd say that the core beliefs are static, but that the public justifications and the positions taken in debates etc, are fluid, changing to take advantage of the talking points of the moment.

 

[CRI]

Solidarity is hard. No-one said it was easy. It's even harder with actively creating the conditions and racial division that the far-right lick their chops at.

True, solidarity is hard. The right the advantage that many are driven by faith, religious or otherwise. Conformity and loyalty are valued. Questioning and inclusion are not. You're either with them or against them.

I think the far right will lick their chops regardless of what those further to the left are or are not doing. They see everyone who doesn't agree with them as the enemy, regardless of what they do.

I don't see how accounting for the fact that some people are more likely to feel and actually be threatened more than others because they're in the cross hairs of those on the right (not just the far right) undermines solidarity of the left. Surely it will bring more people into the fold if they don't fear they'll be thrown under the bus when the going gets tough, or that they're just expected to put up, shut up and fall into line because "at least we're better than the other guys."

 

[J Ed]

True, solidarity is hard. The right the advantage that many are driven by faith, religious or otherwise. Conformity and loyalty are valued. Questioning and inclusion are not. You're either with them or against them

Or, you could say, biological determinism...

 

[CRI]

That pretty much shatters the nonsense that Americans and ex-pat Americans are somehow uniquely knowledgable about American politics and history, doesn't it...

Gosh, colonialism lives. Well done!

You really are a nasty piece of misrepresenting work, aren't you?

No one is scolding or chiding anyone's reaction, emotional or otherwise, so you can fuck right off with your snidey digs at danny la rouge's post, as with your regular accusations of racism at various other posters.

How nice of you to explain to bimble what's needed to oppose anti-semitic bigotry. To echo an earlier post of your's on this thread or one of the others, goy-splaining much?

How the hell you got that out of what I wrote, ffs.