Bitcoin discussion and news

[mwgdrwg]

People were shitting themselves that it was a bubble when it reached £100, and then £1000 earlier this year. I see no difference now.

It lost a third of it's value a couple of months ago, my feeling is the same thing will happen now, so down to about $7000, then back on it's upward movement.

I am fucking clueless btw

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can you expand on your understanding of the first bit, about just taking off zero's?

Not sure about the second bit either. Not consuming when you don't deem it necessary can't be a bad thing to do on a Sunday afternoon on our limited little planet, surely? I mean if value is in the spending, then all that's really happened here is that the 'hodler' now has more of the choice to spend or not. If she doesn't, what's the harm?

First bit: Fiat currencies may be inflationary, but bitcoin isn't immune to inflation either. Instead of adding more coins as you would with a currency, you just devalue each existing one. Same net effect.

There's also the thorny question as to why currencies are inflationary. That's disputed territory, but my take on it is to do with the value of the real things the currency represents. Few things go up in value over time - you paint a wall this year, and you need to paint it again in 10 years' time, so the value of that paint on the wall goes down every year. Entropy, basically, and it's mirrored by the value of money going down over time - money produced to represent a particular value at a particular time, where that real value tends to go down over time. You offset that by putting money in a bank and getting it circulating - someone else spends it and gets stuff done. If you don't do that with your bitcoin, you should have no expectation for its value to do anything other than go down over time.

 

[newbie]

Why do you want Bitcoin to fail?

have you read the previous few pages?

to save you the bother, and because, in the 40-odd posts since yours only a couple of posters have bothered to allude to the pressing, overwhelming crisis that is Bitcoin, I'll say it again.

Bitcoin uses about 300kWh per transaction, that's probably about 3 months or more of your household electricity consumption- please look up your bill and think about it. I repeat, each transaction uses as much electricity as your home does in 3 months. Late edit: I should have said 'our' not 'your' see page 78.

When this was first mentioned on this thread I checked- on Nov 4 there were 261,743 transactions. Today, less than a month later, there are 386,124.

This is from Nov 6

Utterly staggering!!

Key Network Statistics

Description Value
Bitcoin's current estimated annual electricity consumption* (TWh) 25.25
Annualized global mining revenues $6,333,471,527
Annualized estimated global mining costs $1,262,732,417
Country closest to Bitcoin in terms of electricity consumption Nigeria
Estimated electricity used over the previous day (KWh) 69,190,817
Implied Watts per GH/s 0.243
Total Network Hashrate in PH/s (1,000,000 GH/s) 11,293
Electricity consumed per transaction (KWh) 236.00
Number of U.S. households that could be powered by Bitcoin 2,338,393
Number of U.S. households powered for 1 day by the electricity consumed for a single transaction 7.99
Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption 0.12%

so fewer than 300,000 transactions used the same power per day as 186,000 people in Nigeria!

According to the list on this page, Nigeria is number 66 on a world power consumption list. When i looked a couple of days ago it had crept up to Oman, number 62. Now it's the same as Morocco, number 61.

Here are the current statistics


As you'll find if you do read through the debate, the Bitcoin evangelists stress that their project only use a tiny percentage of the world electricity. If it carries on growing it'll use all of it in a couple of years.

So yes, I want Bitcoin to fail, to fail now, to fail completely and terminally and never to be resurrected. The world cannot afford to squander power on that scale, nor the carbon footprint and global warming that go with it.

IMO every single post on any Bitcoin thread anywhere should say this.

 

[camouflage]

Plus it's a means of dodging taxes. There's nothing democratic or egalitarian about bitcoin. If the model actually is successful long-term (which I doubt it will be tbh), its net effect will be to concentrate wealth even more in the hands of a few.

No it's not, not any more than paper cash is. If you're a proper business or the sort of person who'd rather not mess about with the tax-man you'll pay your taxes. Look to monero or something for tax-dodging, though it means your business is probably of a prohibited market in the first place.

 

[camouflage]

First bit: Fiat currencies may be inflationary, but bitcoin isn't immune to inflation either. Instead of adding more coins as you would with a currency, you just devalue each existing one. Same net effect.

There's also the thorny question as to why currencies are inflationary. That's disputed territory, but my take on it is to do with the value of the real things the currency represents. Few things go up in value over time - you paint a wall this year, and you need to paint it again in 10 years' time, so the value of that paint on the wall goes down every year. Entropy, basically, and it's mirrored by the value of money going down over time - money produced to represent a particular value at a particular time, where that real value tends to go down over time. You offset that by putting money in a bank and getting it circulating - someone else spends it and gets stuff done. If you don't do that with your bitcoin, you should have no expectation for its value to do anything other than go down over time.

Deflation is not the same thing as inflation.

 

[mwgdrwg]

have you read the previous few pages?

to save you the bother, and because, in the 40-odd posts since yours only a couple of posters have bothered to allude to the pressing, overwhelming crisis that is Bitcoin, I'll say it again.

Bitcoin uses about 300kWh per transaction, that's probably about 3 months or more of your household electricity consumption- please look up your bill and think about it. I repeat, each transaction uses as much electricity as your home does in 3 months.

When this was first mentioned on this thread I checked- on Nov 4 there were 261,743 transactions. Today, less than a month later, there are 386,124.

This is from Nov 6


so fewer than 300,000 transactions used the same power per day as 186,000 people in Nigeria!

According to the list on this page, Nigeria is number 66 on a world power consumption list. When i looked a couple of days ago it had crept up to Oman, number 62. Now it's the same as Morocco, number 61.

Here are the current statistics
View attachment 121758

As you'll find if you do read through the debate, the Bitcoin evangelists stress that their project only use a tiny percentage of the world electricity. If it carries on growing it'll use all of it in a couple of years.

So yes, I want Bitcoin to fail, to fail now, to fail completely and terminally and never to be resurrected. The world cannot afford to squander power on that scale, nor the carbon footprint and global warming that go with it.

IMO every single post on any Bitcoin thread anywhere should say this.

Hiow does a single transaction use that much power???

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Deflation is not the same thing as inflation.

Two ways of doing inflation. You leave everyone's wages the same and double prices. Or you leave prices the same and halve wages. Same net effect. Same with bitcoin. At the moment you have deflation with it, which is destructive in and of itself as it encourages people to hang onto it.

Even without taking into account what newbie rightly says above, bitcoin sucks as a currency. It is not fit for purpose, and never will be.

 

[bimble]

The only definitely known real-world thing is what newbie has pointed out isn’t it. I still don’t understand where all that power is used, and who pays for it.

 

[newbie]

Hiow does a single transaction use that much power???

The transaction has to be cryptographically verified in a process which also mines new coins. Ranbay is our resident expert and can probably explain the tekkie detail- and homewarming effect- better than I.



Bitcoin Mining Now Consuming More Electricity Than 159 Countries Including Ireland & Most Countries In Africa

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The only definitely known real-world thing is what newbie has pointed out isn’t it. I still don’t understand where all that power is used, and who pays for it.

I sort of understand where it is used - to power supercomputers doing superhard maths. But who pays for it is a very good question.

My bet: it'll be a history question in decades to come, like the Amsterdam Bulb Mania. And it will seem every bit as silly.

 

[camouflage]

have you read the previous few pages?

to save you the bother, and because, in the 40-odd posts since yours only a couple of posters have bothered to allude to the pressing, overwhelming crisis that is Bitcoin, I'll say it again.

Bitcoin uses about 300kWh per transaction, that's probably about 3 months or more of your household electricity consumption- please look up your bill and think about it. I repeat, each transaction uses as much electricity as your home does in 3 months.

When this was first mentioned on this thread I checked- on Nov 4 there were 261,743 transactions. Today, less than a month later, there are 386,124.

This is from Nov 6


so fewer than 300,000 transactions used the same power per day as 186,000 people in Nigeria!

According to the list on this page, Nigeria is number 66 on a world power consumption list. When i looked a couple of days ago it had crept up to Oman, number 62. Now it's the same as Morocco, number 61.

Here are the current statistics
View attachment 121758

As you'll find if you do read through the debate, the Bitcoin evangelists stress that their project only use a tiny percentage of the world electricity. If it carries on growing it'll use all of it in a couple of years.

So yes, I want Bitcoin to fail, to fail now, to fail completely and terminally and never to be resurrected. The world cannot afford to squander power on that scale, nor the carbon footprint and global warming that go with it.

IMO every single post on any Bitcoin thread anywhere should say this.

I feel the same about nuclear weapons. Why everyone isn't running around shrieking in terror until every last nuclear weapon has been decommissioned and every last Uranium mine closed down is beyond me. I reckon that if bitcoin can't be sustainable than it simply wont sustain, same thing more generally, but have no idea what it will look like for bitcoins energy demand to collide with political factors like rising energy bills or more diffuse effects like climate change. You never know though, ecological questions on the sustainability of the modern internet might be kick-started into wide scale debate because of the question of the bitcoin beast.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The transaction has to be cryptographically verified in a process which also mines new coins. Ranbay is our resident expert and can probably explain the tekkie detail- and homewarming effect- better than I.

View attachment 121760

Bitcoin Mining Now Consuming More Electricity Than 159 Countries Including Ireland & Most Countries In Africa

Those stats are fucking mad. And if I understand the system correctly, there is no way for bitcoin to expand without also expanding the electricity usage, not to mention tying up computers doing essentially useless tasks when they could be doing something productive.

I'm with you. I hope bitcoin crashes and burns, and as soon as possible.

 

[newbie]

I sort of understand where it is used - to power supercomputers doing superhard maths. But who pays for it is a very good question.

My bet: it'll be a history question in decades to come, like the Amsterdam Bulb Mania. And it will seem every bit as silly.

the miners pay for the power. They are paid by the new coins they mine. They can also be paid for verifying the transaction if it's wanted in a hurry- most take many hours and are free, some are paid for.

I'm not an expert, I hope others will correct anything that's not accurate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the miners pay for the power. They are paid by the new coins they mine. They can also be paid for verifying the transaction if it's wanted in a hurry- most take many hours and are free, some are paid for.

I'm not an expert, I hope others will correct anything that's not accurate.

So in actual fact, no transaction is free. You pay a massive fee every time you want to transfer a bitcoin to buy something? Is that right?

 

[mwgdrwg]

The transaction has to be cryptographically verified in a process which also mines new coins. Ranbay is our resident expert and can probably explain the tekkie detail- and homewarming effect- better than I.

View attachment 121760

Bitcoin Mining Now Consuming More Electricity Than 159 Countries Including Ireland & Most Countries In Africa

Blimey.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Those stats are fucking mad. And if I understand the system correctly, there is no way for bitcoin to expand without also expanding the electricity usage, not to mention tying up computers doing essentially useless tasks when they could be doing something productive.

I'm with you. I hope bitcoin crashes and burns, and as soon as possible.

We all pay for this directly or indirectly - this is not a victim free money making machine, it is an energy nomming ouroboros. its fucking disgusting.

 

[camouflage]

The only definitely known real-world thing is what newbie has pointed out isn’t it. I still don’t understand where all that power is used, and who pays for it.

For generating heat.

 

[camouflage]

Those stats are fucking mad. And if I understand the system correctly, there is no way for bitcoin to expand without also expanding the electricity usage, not to mention tying up computers doing essentially useless tasks when they could be doing something productive.

I'm with you. I hope bitcoin crashes and burns, and as soon as possible.

Get a sandwich board and start preaching, if you're not activley opposing bitcoin then in the dark cryptopia to come you'll be one of those that stood by and did nothing.

My take is a little more optimistic so i don't have to do anything just yet.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Blimey.

Inside the World of Chinese Bitcoin ‘Mining’

not a great article in depth, but as a series of snapshots of what is being setup to mine these things, it is pretty interesting. It virtually has its own power plant. Try to work out what this energy is being used for.

A Deep Dive in a Real-World Bitcoin Mine - Digiconomist

here is a coal powered bitcoin mine. yes, coal

 

[newbie]

Blimey.

indeed. It's insane and cannot continue. The trouble is, it's been designed to be, so far as possible, immune from all government regulation. So how can it be stopped?

 

[ffsear]

So i assume most of these miners hold onto the bitcoins that they earn, rather then release to on the various exchanges? So when bitcoin does eventually crash it will be on their terms and they will be the first ones liquidating their coins!

 

[not-bono-ever]

I wouldn't worry, its will not be long until North Korea is running the BC show

 

[Crispy]

indeed. It's insane and cannot continue. The trouble is, it's been designed to be, so far as possible, immune from all government regulation. So how can it be stopped?

By replacing it with something else?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

indeed. It's insane and cannot continue. The trouble is, it's been designed to be, so far as possible, immune from all government regulation. So how can it be stopped?

A crash in value will put the brakes on. The whole thing runs on confidence - break that and it breaks.

 

[newbie]

By replacing it with something else?

not my call. If what has been said to me on this thread is correct, none of the other crypto-coins use as much power as Bitcoin but (or because) they're not verifiably as secure.

 

[newbie]

A crash in value will put the brakes on. The whole thing runs on confidence - break that and it breaks.

like 1929 and 2009 put the brakes on the stock market?

greed, and the notion of sticking it to the man when using it to buy weed, will fire it up again.

 

[Crispy]

I was under impression that the long calculation time for bitcoin was deliberate, to restrain the rate of mining. The actual cryptography can be done very quickly.

 

[bimble]

The segwit split was all about this wasn’t it, an attempt to simplify and reduce the amount of duplication, to make it more efficient, less energy-hungry because fewer calculations per hour or whatever ?
(I don’t really know what I’m talking about)

 

[camouflage]

A crash in value will put the brakes on. The whole thing runs on confidence - break that and it breaks.

Bitcoin will just interpret that as an opportunity and "buy the dip", thus expanding itself.

 

[camouflage]

like 1929 and 2009 put the brakes on the stock market?

greed, and the notion of sticking it to the man when using it to buy weed, will fire it up again.

also fear, and a whole range of other products and services in addition to weed. and also to hodl.