Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[emanymton]

It's not. It doesn't compare 'hardship' with any other reason that people may have had for voting as they did. You have made that assumption yourself.

I feel they way it is presented is trying to give that impression. Could be that is is snipped from something bigger which would be different.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I feel they way it is presented is trying to give that impression. Could be that is is snipped from something bigger which would be different.

tbf it's a variant on 'it's the economy, stupid', and 'it's the economy, stupid' does still have a lot of truth to it.

But it involves self-reporting of a measure that isn't defined, so it only really gives an idea of how people feel.

Feel good, you vote for the incumbent. Feel bad, you vote for the challenger.

Again, reductive, but as a predictor of electoral success, it is pretty good. It may well be that the Dems would have been in trouble this year as the incumbent whoever had been the candidate and whatever that candidate had said. Last two years have been very very bad for incumbents across the world.

 

[ignatious]

I feel they way it is presented is trying to give that impression. Could be that is is snipped from something bigger which would be different.

Quite possibly they are. I approached it from a 'why the Dems lost' rather than 'why Trump won' perspective which may explain our slightly different takes.

 

[kabbes]

I agree with all of this. Add to all of this plus multiple generations of right-wing propaganda machines blaring at them 24x7 and you can understand why they don't have the facts. I still have to ask, at what point do we hold them accountable for their choices? I've seen some of the most awful preening from people I personally know who are quite happy they're getting to see other people get hurt. They're cheering it. This is the second time, as well. I won't call it "stupidity", but it does seem to be a character issue when you deliberately vote to hurt people, not once, but twice.

What you have to ask yourself is: why do they want to hurt those people? Νot because if their answer is “good” enough, we’ll say, “oh, okay then!” But because if we don’t understand why, we don’t have a hope in hell’s chance of defusing their hatred. People don’t just wake up one day with the thought in their head that they want to hurt others. It’s a process that happens over time, arising from a massive nexus of social experiences. So ideally, we want to do two things. First, we want to interrupt that pipeline and stop new people from becoming radicalised by hate. And second, we want to find a way to undo the process. Neither of these are possible if we haven’t understood where it is coming from.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

What you have to ask yourself is: why do they want to hurt those people? Νot because if their answer is “good” enough, we’ll say, “oh, okay then!” But because if we don’t understand why, we don’t have a hope in hell’s chance of defusing their hatred. People don’t just wake up one day with the thought in their head that they want to hurt others. It’s a process that happens over time, arising from a massive nexus of social experiences. So ideally, we want to do two things. First, we want to interrupt that pipeline and stop new people from becoming radicalised by hate. And second, we want to find a way to undo the process. Neither of these are possible if we haven’t understood where it is coming from.

They want to harm other people because they're manipulated by people like Trump - and the corporate lobbyists and big business corporate donors and fundamentalist Christian and right-wing ideologues behind him - into believing that their hardship and problems are caused by immigrants and LGBT people and feminists, etc.

 

[Wilf]

You can't fix stupid

You can keep saying that, but where does it leave us? Americans are stupid. Oh well, that's alright.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I think a lot of people wanted MAGA because they think it means the possibility of a decent job, being able to afford a home, not being bankrupted by medical bills etc.

Very much in our lifetime this was the how things were in the US, just look at The Simpsons; One only very slightly skilled worker in the family, detached house filled with 'stuff', two cars, annual holiday, and so on. Sure it's a cartoon, but when it appeared in the late 80s that situation wasn't far-fetched, fucking well is now.

 

[Yossarian]

Very much in our lifetime this was the how things were in the US, just look at The Simpsons; One only very slightly skilled worker in the family, detached house filled with 'stuff', two cars, annual holiday, and so on. Sure it's a cartoon, but when it appeared in the late 80s that situation wasn't far-fetched, fucking well is now.

He had a good union, too

 

[kabbes]

They want to harm other people because they're manipulated by people like Trump - and the corporate lobbyists and big business corporate donors and fundamentalist Christian and right-wing ideologues behind him - into believing that their hardship and problems are caused by immigrants and LGBT people and feminists, etc.

This doesn’t accord with my understanding of how people work. People are actually remarkably resistant to top-down manipulation regarding their ideological beliefs. I don’t think that they believe that their problems are caused by immigrants, LGBT people and feminists, nor that this is their origins of wanting to hurt people.

Basically, you’ve done the very thing that you say you dislike them for — you’ve constructed a stereotype based on what you assume them to be and then you’ve hated on that stereotype.

 

[emanymton]

This doesn’t accord with my understanding of how people work. People are actually remarkably resistant to top-down manipulation regarding their ideological beliefs. I don’t think that they believe that their problems are caused by immigrants, LGBT people and feminists, nor that this is their origins of wanting to hurt people.

Basically, you’ve done the very thing that you say you dislike them for — you’ve constructed a stereotype based on what you assume them to be and then you’ve hated on that stereotype.

I think it's in large part down to a deeply entrenched culture that is heavily individualistic, competitive, and which glorifies violence and the military. Which is of course a bit contradictory as the military very anti-individualistic.

 

[danny la rouge]

I read that many Latino/Latina voters were put off by being referred to by the made up word Latinx too.

I read that respectful intentions were better than trying to be a smart arse.

 

[Maltin]

I read that respectful intentions were better than trying to be a smart arse.

It may be an attempt to be respectful but if a large proportion of the Latino community don’t like English speakers changing their language it is probably better to be respectful and not change it.

 

[Maltin]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/11/01/latinx-latinos-trump-democrats/

 

[danny la rouge]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/11/01/latinx-latinos-trump-democrats/

Writer Jack Qu'emi explains the meaning of 'Latinx' - The World from PRX

"In Spanish, the masculinized version of words is considered as gender-neutral. I don't think its appropriate to assign masculinity as neutral when it isn't."

theworld.org

 

[danny la rouge]

So some people of those origins like it and some don’t. I’ll probably now avoid all three terms altogether now.

 

[Maltin]

Writer Jack Qu'emi explains the meaning of 'Latinx' - The World from PRX

"In Spanish, the masculinized version of words is considered as gender-neutral. I don't think its appropriate to assign masculinity as neutral when it isn't."

theworld.org

I know why people used it. That article is from 2016. Since then, many people have stopped using it as per the reception part of this article. Latinx - Wikipedia

 

[Sue]

Writer Jack Qu'emi explains the meaning of 'Latinx' - The World from PRX

"In Spanish, the masculinized version of words is considered as gender-neutral. I don't think its appropriate to assign masculinity as neutral when it isn't."

theworld.org

Aye well, happens here too with 'lads' and 'guys' for example.

 

[kabbes]

So some people of those origins like it and some don’t. I’ll probably now avoid all three terms altogether now.

There is a genuine question to be asked as to what function any of the three words are serving in the discourse. I am suspicious of the whole usage, to be honest. I suspect it has a role in maintaining a culture of hierarchical dominance, for reasons I either can’t articulate or can’t be bothered to articulate, depending on your perspective

 

[danny la rouge]

I know why people used it. That article is from 2016. Since then, many people have stopped using it as per the reception part of this article. Latinx - Wikipedia

Yeah, my hostile reaction was due to what I perceived as your smartarsey. I’d have been more receptive to “oh, by the way, did you know this…?”

However I was hostile and that was poor form. Apologies.

 

[Maltin]

Yeah, my hostile reaction was due to what I perceived as your smartarsey. I’d have been more receptive to “oh, by the way, did you know this…?”

However I was hostile and that was poor form. Apologies.

Thanks. No problem. It was just that if we are talking of reasons why some voted Trump, that word was cited as one of them, rightly or wrongly, so thought it was relevant to flag.

 

[danny la rouge]

There is a genuine question to be asked as to what function any of the three words are serving in the discourse. I am suspicious of the whole usage, to be honest. I suspect it has a role in maintaining a culture of hierarchical dominance, for reasons I either can’t articulate or can’t be bothered to articulate, depending on your perspective

Agreed. I’m always suspicious of such terms and concepts, and to be honest I think US culture is generally weird about “ethnicity” (another term I’m suspicious of).

However I was referring to an article which was talking about a voter demographic, and that’s what I was trying to convey.

Incidentally I have since reread the article and it actually used the term “Hispanic”. Which is probably another can of worms.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is a genuine question to be asked as to what function any of the three words are serving in the discourse. I am suspicious of the whole usage, to be honest. I suspect it has a role in maintaining a culture of hierarchical dominance, for reasons I either can’t articulate or can’t be bothered to articulate, depending on your perspective

In this discourse, there is a great deal made about the black/white/latino/Muslim/etc votes as if they all represented distinct interest groups. See also "college graduate", which all too often is used as a proxy for age (as also happened in the Brexit debate).

The whole discourse is debased.

There is a stark difference in voting patterns between urban and rural areas both interstate and intrastate, but that particular division seems to barely get a mention.

 

[maomao]

Incidentally I have since reread the article and it actually used the term “Hispanic”. Which is probably another can of worms.

Hispanic includes Spain but not Brazil, Suriname, Guyana or French Guiana (it means Spanish speaking) by my understanding.

 

[danny la rouge]

Hispanic includes Spain but not Brazil, Suriname, Guyana or French Guiana (it means Spanish speaking) by my understanding.

It at least has the advantage of being gender neutral. I think.

 

[Sue]

I read that many Latino/Latina voters were put off by being referred to by the made up word Latinx too.

OTOH, there's a group at my work set up by Latino/a people (mainly based in the US) called Latinx so they anyway seem okay with it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hispanic includes Spain but not Brazil, Suriname, Guyana or French Guiana (it means Spanish speaking) by my understanding.

Does latinx/a/o include Guyana?

In a US context, it is overwhelmingly those of a Latin American heritage of some kind or another, no?

tbh these things are all cans of worms. At some point we have to accept imperfection, no? I mean under the influence of cricket, I would possibly refer to someone from Guyana as West Indian, which really is WTF when you think about it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

OTOH, there's a group at my work set up by Latino/a people (mainly based in the US) called Latinx so they anyway seem okay with it.

There is no universal agreement and no good answer. See also 'native American' vs 'American Indian'.

 

[belboid]

Latino was inventoried about 1970 for census 'reasons' iirr. Certainly around then. While it is useful in one sense - there is certainly large scale discrimination against people from a Latin/Central/South American background in the US and it is useful to have a term to recognise that - it does also require two or three versions to include everyone. Which is a bit self-defeating.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Latino was inventoried about 1970 for census 'reasons' iirr. Certainly around then. While it is useful in one sense - there is certainly large scale discrimination against people from a Latin/Central/South American background in the US and it is useful to have a term to recognise that - it does also require two or three versions to include everyone. Which is a bit self-defeating.

Yeah, if you think the the alternative approach adopted by France - ignore it and it doesn't exist - doesn't work, you do need to have some terms for groupings.

Problem being that naming something can essentialise it.

As I said, no good answers sometimes, just a least worst one.

 

[maomao]

Does latinx/a/o include Guyana?

In a US context, it is overwhelmingly those of a Latin American heritage of some kind or another, no?

tbh these things are all cans of worms. At some point we have to accept imperfection, no? I mean under the influence of cricket, I would possibly refer to someone from Guyana as West Indian, which really is WTF when you think about it.

My best mate's mum when I was a kid was from Guyana and I only realised it wasn't an island in my 30s or 40s. Belize also, I always assumed was an island because it culturally aligns with the West Indies. Hispanic is probably a more useful term if you're talking about voting blocks because it's people who share media and culture.