Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[elbows]

More on the ship:

Pentagon: "There was an explosion" on the Russian warship but US can't assess at this point if missile hit it

The US and EU have pledged a combined $1.3 billion more in military aid for Ukraine as Russia prepares to launch an eastern offensive.

edition.cnn.com

“We’re not quite exactly sure what happened here. We do assess that there was an explosion — at least one explosion on this cruiser — a fairly major one at that, that has caused extensive damage to the ship,” Kirby said.

“We assess that the ship is able to make its own way, and it is doing that; it's heading more towards now we think the east. We think it's probably going to be putting in at Sevastopol for repairs, but we don’t know what exactly caused that,” Kirby added.

"The explosion was sizable enough that we picked up indications that other naval vessels around her tried to come to her assistance, and so eventually that wasn’t apparently needed. So she is making her own way across the Black Sea and we’ll continue to try and monitor this as best we can," he added.

 

[MrCurry]

Not nailed on yet. For the US to agree to accession, the proposal needs to pass the US senate by a 2/3rds margin. With the very real possibility of interference from the pro-putin caucus of the GOP, the US may yet fuck it up.

I would have thought any pro-Putin factions within US politics will have shrunk as a result of the war to the point where they don’t have much power any more. Not enough to scupper this at least.

 

[Pickman's model]

So just like the British, French and US military, then.

My great-grandfather was heroically martyred for King and Country in the Great War. If I want to find out exactly how, all I have to do is subscribe to a website that has the rights to his military records. I wonder if in his death throws, he reflected upon how the state might find a way of monetising his miserable demise.

Or you could go to your local archives which may well have a subscription to said service.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Anyone else think the Pentagon may be trying to hide the actual truth of an actual sunk ship? Maybe to stop "severe reprocussions"?

Who knows how much truth the top dogs are receiving, and how much they are willing to pass on to the maniac at the top?

 

[8ball]

Anyone else think the Pentagon may be trying to hide the actual truth of an actual sunk ship? Maybe to stop "severe reprocussions"?

Who knows how much truth the top dogs are receiving, and how much they are willing to pass on to the maniac at the top?

The Pentagon?
I would expect it from the Kremlin, but wouldn't the Pentagon be happy enough to report it if taken out by a Ukrainian missile?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

The Pentagon?

It's not like they don't come out with a lot of shit all the time, is it?

Announcements to the great unwashed really are just performative. Who the fuck knows what goes on behind the velvet curtains of the theatre.

 

[8ball]

It's not like they don't come out with a lot of shit all the time, is it?

Announcements to the great unwashed really are just performative. Who the fuck knows what goes on behind the velvet curtains of the theatre.

Well, I guess. I just can't think on the hop of why they would do it in this particular case.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

We know for a fact generals are suffering "heart attacks" and topside FSB are in long term jail.

Bad news is bad news. How much bad news can a dictator, high on his own bullshit propaganda, take?

 

[8ball]

We know for a fact generals are suffering "heart attacks" and topside FSB are in long term jail.

Bad news is bad news. How much bad news can a dictator, high on his own bullshit propaganda, take?

Maybe whenever a General carks it the other Generals just say he's gone to The Front to support troop morale.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Better for Ukraine to keep an incompetent naval general in charge and alive, than to eek the truth out to a paranoid genocidal nutjob? No?

 

[Yossarian]

Not nailed on yet. For the US to agree to accession, the proposal needs to pass the US senate by a 2/3rds margin. With the very real possibility of interference from the pro-putin caucus of the GOP, the US may yet fuck it up.

Two measures on sanctions on Russia and supplying weapons to Ukraine passed the Senate 100-0 last week, I don't think there'll be many Republicans willing to break ranks on NATO accession.

 

[8ball]

Better for Ukraine to keep an incompetent naval general in charge and alive, than to eek the truth out to a paranoid genocidal nutjob? No?

Plenty of smoke and mirrors here so your guess is at least as good as mine.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Plenty of smoke and mirrors here so your guess is at least as good as mine.

Exactly. No pictures either way. No satellite imagery. Nothing.

That to me says something. I'm not sure what, but something.

 

[8ball]

Exactly. No pictures either way. No satellite imagery. Nothing.

That to me says something. I'm not sure what, but something.

Well, a plane flew into the Pentagon and there was barely a pic to show for it...

 

[MickiQ]

I would have thought any pro-Putin factions within US politics will have shrunk as a result of the war to the point where they don’t have much power any more. Not enough to scupper this at least.

I don't think the GOP would vote down Swedish or Finnish membership of NATO because they're pro-Putin but simply because they are anti-Biden and even anti-Democrat Party. US politics seems to have become ridiculously confrontational these days.

 

[elbows]

Anyone else think the Pentagon may be trying to hide the actual truth of an actual sunk ship? Maybe to stop "severe reprocussions"?

Who knows how much truth the top dogs are receiving, and how much they are willing to pass on to the maniac at the top?

No, to be honest it sounds like you've run off in a strange direction by buying too comprehensively into the idea that this entire war should be viewed through the narrow prism of Putin as a madman.

 

[The39thStep]

While the term ‘draft dodgers’ isn’t pleasant, the article isn’t shaming. I don’t get that it’s telling us what to think about people in a very difficult situation. It’s describing yet more misery and hatred caused by the invasion.

Perhaps the headline 'Ukraine's Draft Dodgers Face Guilt , Shame and Reproach' is worse than the content ?

​

 

[Pickman's model]

Anyone else think the Pentagon may be trying to hide the actual truth of an actual sunk ship? Maybe to stop "severe reprocussions"?

Who knows how much truth the top dogs are receiving, and how much they are willing to pass on to the maniac at the top?

I think you've fallen down a rabbit hole

 

[Yossarian]

Perhaps the headline 'Ukraine's Draft Dodgers Face Guilt , Shame and Reproach' is worse than the content ?

​

It literally quotes somebody saying "I am ashamed."

 

[maomao]

To stop severe repercussions? Think we're already beyond that, after Mariupol etc

The possibility of more severe repercussions exists.

 

[maomao]

More on the ship:

Pentagon: "There was an explosion" on the Russian warship but US can't assess at this point if missile hit it

The US and EU have pledged a combined $1.3 billion more in military aid for Ukraine as Russia prepares to launch an eastern offensive.

edition.cnn.com

I figured it wasn't sunk when the Ukranians didn't add one to their 'boat' tally this morning.

 

[elbows]

Putin as an incomprehensible madman is the sort of US angle that you should not take at face value, not details about the ship.

Chomsky came up on this thread the other day and thats the sort of thing he is actually good for, offering a guide as to why madman angles are favoured at the expense of discussing rather different sorts of analysis on the motivations for war.

People can still include a bit of Putins flawed worldview and thinking in their own impression of things if they like, but there are limits to the madman angle which have become more obvious as the war has continued. The most obvious example that springs to mind is that the speed with which Russia changed plans, giving up its ambitions in regards Kyiv and the quick overthrowing of the Ukrainian government, is not compatible with Putin being entirely divorced from reality or of key military operational setbacks being hidden from him.

 

[David Clapson]

What has that got to do with the price of cheese? Would you have mentioned it if they'd been 'male leaders'...?

No I wouldn't. Putin's macho ego, I think it's safe to say, is more affronted by successful female leaders than successful male ones. I'd have thought that was too obvious to need explaining.

 

[Dystopiary]

Re: russian claims that 1000 UA marines have surrendered in maripoul. Is there any verification for this? You'd have thought the Russian would have released a few photos if it were true?

Don't know about numbers. But some people definitely have been forced to surrender - British Marine Aiden Aslin and his unit had run out of ammo and food. There are people on social media describing him as a mercenary and a war tourist, but he's been in the Ukrainian Marines for at least 3 years, lives there and has a Ukrainian fiancée. Aslin is definitely now in Russian captivity.

 

[Pickman's model]

Putin outmanoeuvred by women leaders. Sweden and Finland could join Nato ‘within weeks’ That's got to hurt. Sanna Marin in her biker jacket is making Vlad's biker cosplay look even more tragic

You don't half post some bollocks. I don't see how this is leaders of any stripe outmanoeuvring Putin but responding to the stimulus of the Russian invasion to do the logical thing. We've already discussed at some length how the war has precipitated all sorts of things Putin declared he was opposed to. And this is one of those things.

 

[Pickman's model]

No I wouldn't. Putin's macho ego, I think it's safe to say, is more affronted by successful female leaders than successful male ones. I'd have thought that was too obvious to need explaining.

You say this on the basis of what actual evidence?

 

[LDC]

Anyone else think the Pentagon may be trying to hide the actual truth of an actual sunk ship? Maybe to stop "severe reprocussions"?

Who knows how much truth the top dogs are receiving, and how much they are willing to pass on to the maniac at the top?

No.

 

[elbows]

This thin veneer of personality-driven storylines does a disservice to the underlying factors.

I suppose its a similar phenomenon to Westminster bubble political journalists making it all about the individuals rather than the policies and the powerful interests.

Soap opera resonates, soap opera obfuscates.

 

[SpookyFrank]

New York Times now naming and shaming Ukrainian 'draft dodgers

Welcome to nginx!

People from Ukraine with no military training who aren't likely to be any use in a war, vs people from everywhere else who do have military training but aren't volunteering to fight in Ukraine.

I know who I think the cowards are.

 

[frogwoman]

I thought it was a pretty sympathetic piece tbh, and talking about another (awful) aspect of the conflict that's not been talked about so far

Draft dodger is an awful term though