Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Bahnhof Strasse]

A thought occurred to me just now - are we maybe missing something much deeper in the various Russian failures and could it be that Putin's plan has been being sabotaged all along by interests in the Russian govt working on their own account?

I'm sure it's not a tremendously new take but I was thinking about the peculiar failures of the Russian air force - maybe the reason they haven't turned up has been as much to do with a lack of will as much as anything else.

Christ

 

[frogwoman]

According to an article in Novaya Gazeta (in Russian) it seems quite a number of people have died or gone missing on that ship and Putin is pretending it didn't happen.

 

[SpookyFrank]

A thought occurred to me just now - are we maybe missing something much deeper in the various Russian failures and could it be that Putin's plan has been being sabotaged all along by interests in the Russian govt working on their own account?

Sheer ineptitude, dysfunctional command structures and ubiquitous corruption are better explanations IMO.

Putin has rebuilt Stalinism without bothering to read up on what happened to it the last time around.

 

[LDC]

According to an article in Novaya Gazeta (in Russian) it seems quite a number of people have died or gone missing on that ship and Putin is pretending it didn't happen.

I'm 'glad' it's sunk, but fucking hell the poor folks inside when it went down, what a terrifying way to end. And then the families and friends at home trying to work out what's actually happened through all the deception and denial, and no body for closure. Grim.

 

[frogwoman]

«Очень много раненых. В основном, с оторванными конечностями»

Моряки с затонувшего крейсера «Москва» связываются с родственниками и рассказывают свои истории. «Новая газета. Европа» публикует одну из них

novayagazetaeu.substack.com

 

[frogwoman]

It's absolutely grim.

 

[Dogsauce]

Some open source type looked at the parade footage and judged it to be legit (Twitter cynics were very quick to dismiss it as old footage etc, but a ‘Z’ painted vehicle can be seen), and worked out that there were about 400 sailors shown in total. That roughly tallies with the number of forty dead and 27 missing stated in the article frogwoman posted above, assuming some also injured might not be present at the parade.

 

[Aladdin]

And New Zealand. US billionaires have been buying land and building bunkers Why Silicon Valley billionaires are prepping for the apocalypse in New Zealand

They must have forgotten about the earthquakes

 

[strung out]

Some open source type looked at the parade footage and judged it to be legit (Twitter cynics were very quick to dismiss it as old footage etc, but a ‘Z’ painted vehicle can be seen), and worked out that there were about 400 sailors shown in total. That roughly tallies with the number of forty dead and 27 missing stated in the article frogwoman posted above, assuming some also injured might not be present at the parade.

There definitely weren't 400 sailors in that video. BBC reckons about 100. If you assume some are still on hospital, I reckon half of the crew are still unaccounted for, either having perished, gone missing or just kept away from the cameras.

 

[Raheem]

The number of men in the video doesn't really tell you anything about how many of them were on the ship in any case.

 

[Cid]

The number of men in the video doesn't really tell you anything about how many of them were on the ship in any case.

No, but the novaya article frogwoman linked to cites two reports which had its crew at 416 (2009) and 510 (2016).

 

[Dystopiary]

The father of a guy onboard, a cook, wants to know what happened to his son.

"I'm asking everyone who is not afraid and not indifferent - please spread my appeal where it's possible, so these bastards wouldn't hush this terrible tragedy up."
"I will dedicate the rest of my life so the truth [will] win"
"They said all crew was evacuated. It's a lie!"

 

[IC3D]

Sheer ineptitude, dysfunctional command structures and ubiquitous corruption are better explanations IMO.

Putin has rebuilt Stalinism without bothering to read up on what happened to it the last time around.

Gangster capitalism with the KGB in command. Fair amount of envy, pride in Slavic race and Orthodox church. Personally I think my ex is somehow behind all this.

 

[Pickman's model]

A thought occurred to me just now - are we maybe missing something much deeper in the various Russian failures and could it be that Putin's plan has been being sabotaged all along by interests in the Russian govt working on their own account?

I'm sure it's not a tremendously new take but I was thinking about the peculiar failures of the Russian air force - maybe the reason they haven't turned up has been as much to do with a lack of will as much as anything else.

Have you an example of this happening elsewhere ever?

 

[Diamond]

This is fun - Russian army TNT charges are actually just blocks of wood:



Imagine being a Russian soldier in the field and reaching into your supplies for a charge and then finding it's actually just a block of wood because someone was selling off the TNT on the side...

Amazing.

 

[LDC]

This is fun - Russian army TNT charges are actually just blocks of wood:



Imagine being a Russian soldier in the field and reaching into your supplies for a charge and then finding it's actually just a block of wood because someone was selling off the TNT on the side...

Amazing.

I'm not sure that is exactly what the case is here, they could just be training or dummy ones.

 

[Indeliblelink]

Seems to be some pictures of the Moskva after it was hit on twitter this morning.
Not sure if they're verified.
The Mirror seems to think they're real

First pictures of sinking Russian warship as survivor describes horrors on board

Photos thought to have been taken by a passing Turkish ship show Russia's flagship Moskva before it sank after allegedly being struck by Ukrainian missiles

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[kebabking]

More Moskva photos. There seems to be some issue with dates, but there are only three vessels of this class built, and this is the only one to be involved in a fire, so...

 

[Indeliblelink]

ETA - Mirror had this picture in their article earlier but seem to have removed it now so probably fake

 

[cupid_stunt]

Very short video of it.

 

[teqniq]

Interesting:

 

[Pickman's model]

ETA - Mirror had this picture in their article earlier but seem to have removed it now so probably fake
View attachment 319102

It's the Belgrano, isn't it. Real picture, wrong ship. Clearly not the Moskva as no missile tubes

 

[Cid]

It's the Belgrano, isn't it. Real picture, wrong ship. Clearly not the Moskva as no missile tubes

Yes, as typing 'Belgrano' into google would have told them in about a second.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, as typing 'Belgrano' into google would have told them in about a second.

Also no fire

 

[dylanredefined]

I was watching something on YouTube this morning, (again, yeah, I know, I have trouble sleeping,) and it was pointing out the vagueness of their objectives. It is feasible they could claim to have met these denazification of Ukraine, strengthening support for the Russian minorities in the east, seeing Ukraine phorfit NATO membership, et cetera. This could be presented to the domestic audience. Internationally they have fucked themselves either way, though of cours

Well thats if they can even hold the Donbass The Ukrainan army is motivated and better trained than the Russians and is getting more equipment. They Russians know the chances of a cushy pow camp has deteriorated after the atrocities so running away is their only option. Its a shit show and I feel sorry for those Russians who haven't committed war crimes.

 

[not-bono-ever]

They didn’t seriously post this up did they ?

 

[Diamond]

Have you an example of this happening elsewhere ever?

Siege warfare would be an area relatively rich in examples of leaders being sold out by underlings, I would have thought - sieges broken by treachery and deceit. And there's something a little siege-like about Russia right now.

The Sicilian expedition is quite different but has some interesting parallels re: insane political leadership, an increasingly divided home front (maybe wishful thinking), throwing commanders under the bus etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

Siege warfare would be an area relatively rich in examples of leaders being sold out by underlings, I would have thought - sieges broken by treachery and deceit. And there's something a little siege-like about Russia right now.

The Sicilian expedition is quite different but has some interesting parallels re: insane political leadership, an increasingly divided home front (maybe wishful thinking), throwing commanders under the bus etc.

That's rather different from the systemic sabotage you suggested above.

 

[alex_]

ETA - Mirror had this picture in their article earlier but seem to have removed it now so probably fake
View attachment 319102

Belgrano ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Belgrano ?

yeh we identified it some time ago