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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

What I find interesting is that blaming it all on NATO casts Putin/Russia in a completely passive role with no agency.
I havent seen anyone do that on here, if they do they're idiots, or more likely stooges. Of course he has agency!

The blame falls on imperialists playing the game. Playing the game requires agency. It also take two to play.
Every time an opponent plays a move we all lose.
strangegame.png
 
but its been like that since - well forever. The cynical self interested "spheres of influence" power play between the US/NATO/EU and Russia has been going on for decades - there was nothing new that "provoked" Putin, no crises or move by nato he was responding to, no domestic pressure - he chose this war out of the blue.
Depends on your timescale of the word "new". Tensions like this are more like tectonic plates pushing against each other - feels stable enough until the earthquake.
 
All look to have been spread by Russia, so not seen any of them on here.
Interesting point about not having seen any of those...nor have I.
The information war feels really unique to this era, and a good example of how we all experience different media
Despite the internet theoretically providing access to all information the bubbles remain strong
Even the imbedded reporting from the last Iraq invasion would be more of a challenge to the current media narrative
Theres always been propaganda by omission but it feels on another (parallel even) level now.
The mechanics of social media are probably where a big part of the problem lies, beyond oldskool TV and paper propaganda.
 
Don't keep blaming NATO for everything. The Russian killing machine is doing the killing.
I take it this was directed at me. If so it is a strawman mischaracterisation - and one that smacks of the appeaser finger pointing variety.
I'm upset by a lot of pro-war sentiment that i think (sometimes subtly, sometimes blatantly) underlies much public, press and political opinion, including on urban, and so i've posted much more on this subject than i would like, its painful to type it in all honesty, but i've tried to set out a nuanced view, and if you're taking it as me blaming nato on everything i dont know why i bother. Either im not being clear enough, or maybe its just easier to reach for that appeaser view.
 
Sure but in the current crises the aggressor is clearly Russia and what does a defeat for imperialism look like in this case? It is a defeat for Russia, in whatever form that takes.
no. let me put it this way: let's say that the united states comes in and ejects russia from ukraine. is that a defeat for imperialism? so, not imo whatever form that takes.
 
I havent seen anyone do that on here, if they do they're idiots, or more likely stooges. Of course he has agency!

The blame falls on imperialists playing the game. Playing the game requires agency. It also take two to play.
Every time an opponent plays a move we all lose.
strangegame.png
I don’t know how much of ‘the west’s response is to do with concern for the people of Ukraine or their right to self determination and how much of it (the moves being made to defend Ukraine and cripple / punish Russia, the choice to ratchet up and play the game) are to do with concerns about what would happen next if they did not intervene.
 
I take it this was directed at me. If so it is a strawman mischaracterisation - and one that smacks of the appeaser finger pointing variety.
I'm upset by a lot of pro-war sentiment that i think (sometimes subtly, sometimes blatantly) underlies much public, press and political opinion, including on urban, and so i've posted much more on this subject than i would like, its painful to type it in all honesty, but i've tried to set out a nuanced view, and if you're taking it as me blaming nato on everything i dont know why i bother. Either im not being clear enough, or maybe its just easier to reach for that appeaser view.
I'm not pro war, nor am I accusing you of being an appeaser. So we can all be misunderstood. I'm just aware of a large section on the left who are looking too hard for excuses for the Russian war machine. Putin says he's reacting to NATO provocation and (some) people believe him. It may be true. But he does have a history of being a lying bastard. So does his nice neighbour in Belarus. It might all be the fault of Liz Truss as well, but I'm not convinced of that either.
 
I'm not pro war, nor am I accusing you of being an appeaser. So we can all be misunderstood. I'm just aware of a large section on the left who are looking too hard for excuses for the Russian war machine. Putin says he's reacting to NATO provocation and (some) people believe him. It may be true. But he does have a history of being a lying bastard. So does his nice neighbour in Belarus. It might all be the fault of Liz Truss as well, but I'm not convinced of that either.
i don't think liz truss can bear all the blame, some must be left for boris johnson
 
Putin says he's reacting to NATO provocation and (some) people believe him. It may be true. But he does have a history of being a lying bastard.
Thing is he’s made clear that the nato thing is way down on his list of claimed reasons, but people seem selective as to which of his grievances / explanations to take seriously.
As this guy, who got fed up a while ago put it,
6A41FB57-27F0-40D4-800D-4B242D58885F.jpeg
 
I'm upset by a lot of pro-war sentiment that i think (sometimes subtly, sometimes blatantly) underlies much public, press and political opinion, including on urban, and so i've posted much more on this subject than i would like, its painful to type it in all honesty, but i've tried to set out a nuanced view, and if you're taking it as me blaming nato on everything i dont know why i bother. Either im not being clear enough, or maybe its just easier to reach for that appeaser view.

There's no pro-war sentiment on here, that's just a very weird and ideologically pacifist driven way of describing it I think. People are just accepting the reality of what's happening and of people defending themselves from oppression, destruction of their homes, death etc., while acknowledging the complexities and contradictions of that position as well. Being 'anti-war' is just meaningless sloganeering that is just some pacifist dogma coming from a personal position of safety, and something that the left is infected with tbh, makes about as much practical and political sense as being anti-my kitchen table while I rest on it to type this.
 
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I'm not pro war, nor am I accusing you of being an appeaser. So we can all be misunderstood. I'm just aware of a large section on the left who are looking too hard for excuses for the Russian war machine. Putin says he's reacting to NATO provocation and (some) people believe him. It may be true. But he does have a history of being a lying bastard. So does his nice neighbour in Belarus. It might all be the fault of Liz Truss as well, but I'm not convinced of that either.
It’s never all the fault of any one thing. Decades of incidents as well as the thrust of history (as exemplified by imperialism) have combined to bring us here. NATO and US expansion has played a part. Sabre rattling from idiots like Truss another one. And so has the support from, thankfully fairly small, numbers of lefties justifying the pseudo-republics of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mostly tho it’s Putins desire to see a return to Russia being the prison house of nations.
 
I like to think the volunteers of The International brigades fighting Franco had much more brain than the stupid thick cunt interviewed in this article.

There was one of these on R4 the other day. He was asked what he would do if captured by the Russians. 'Having seen (how exactly?) what the Russians do to theirs POWS, I won't get caught,' was his response, or words to that effect.

Where there's no sense there's no feeling, as they say.
 
Has Putin made any public announcements during the past couple of days? Seems like he’s gone quiet, and I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing?
 
It's interesting that RD2003 endlessly uses Russia's history of invasion to justify Russia's concern about NATO being on it's borders, but never considers the easterns states experience of Russian invasion/domination as being an understandable reason for them wanting to join NATO....
Your solution to that desire for that protection was that the west didnt put enough weapons on the eastern border! A disastrous conclusion to make IMO.

So what is a way to have achieved a good outcome since 1989? Too complicated to put in a post by the likes of me, but it boils down to committed de-escalationary statecraft and diplomacy. To want that is a modest political aspiration I think. Europe's ruling political class has only one vision that they think comes close to that, and thats neoliberalism and interconnected economies. It is clearly way off the mark.
 
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