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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

I just booked the fully refundable room, no flights or anything. Partly as an attempt to force self to be less despairing and partly as tiny symbolic act of support.
Booking a hotel in a country that's at war makes you feel less despairing? Seriously?

And support how, given it seems pretty unlikely you'd be able to actually get there even if you wanted to.
 
Why plan a holiday in what will potentially be a war zone? I'm sorry but that just feels like a fucking stupid thing to do. :confused:

To lock-in a great price, would be my bet. If it's fully refundable it doesn't matter does it. If Ukraine do prevail here somehow, which seems highly unlikely, they'll need all the tourist cash they can get. However, I think May is far too optmistic. I might do similar for a weekend in September though.
 
The Ukrainian President may not mind dying and taking the country with him, and that may be true for many other Ukrainians, but there is a duty from those arming Ukraine to both bring peace and save Ukrainian lives, and even infrastructure.

There is no point sending endless arms in if the war cant be won by the West by proxy - and frankly I dont think it can. Not unless you are prepared to escalate to potential World War. And if the Russians take over soon they may also get those weapons themselves.

If you dont want to be ruled and dictated by Putin then you have to reckon with the fact that open warfare against an enormous Russian army is likely not the way to achieve that.

I despise war,and the arms industry, and the armchair generals sending in weapons without fighting themselves, and only have anti-war bones in my body, and dont want people to die and suffer needlessly, so thats my perspective. I think we're at a stage where Ukranian people have made their point, the world has heard it, but will need to retreat against the oncoming occupying forces. More heavy weaponry doesnt help that.
I take all your points on this. What happens, though, if Putin invades Moldova, or Finland, or Georgia again, or wherever? Do we let armed dictators just do whatever they feel like? If I lived in Ukraine right now I wouldn't feel like retreating. Where to? Why should I?
We know from the behaviour of Russian forces in Syria and Chechnya, and historically from Russian troops under both the Soviets and the Tsars, that surrender and retreat is no guarantee of any kind of safety.
 
I think it is still not impossible for Ukraine to win.

I can't see how without military intervention from NATO and that can't happen. The outside hope is that they can hold on for long enough for the sanctions and other diplomatic efforts to take effect and weaken Vlad's will to continue, but the more that happens, the more must be the temptation to raze the place and get it over with. I think the tone of things is about to change from 'plucky Ukraine' to 'oh fuck, this is disastrous'.
 
Radio 4 doing its best to lobby for a no-fly zone this morning. Bring it on-nuclear war!

If loads of Ukrainians are going to die, we might as well go with them.

I wouldn't mind, but half the daft twats don't even know how to pronounce a Russian surname.

You still here?

Any condemnation from you of the Russian aggression, or just snide comments blaming Ukraine for further casualties?

Nope. Didn't think so.
 
The Ukrainian President may not mind dying and taking the country with him, and that may be true for many other Ukrainians, but there is a duty from those arming Ukraine to both bring peace and save Ukrainian lives, and even infrastructure.

There is no point sending endless arms in if the war cant be won by the West by proxy - and frankly I dont think it can. Not unless you are prepared to escalate to potential World War. And if the Russians take over soon they may also get those weapons themselves.

If you dont want to be ruled and dictated by Putin then you have to reckon with the fact that open warfare against an enormous Russian army is likely not the way to achieve that.

I despise war,and the arms industry, and the armchair generals sending in weapons without fighting themselves, and only have anti-war bones in my body, and dont want people to die and suffer needlessly, so thats my perspective. I think we're at a stage where Ukranian people have made their point, the world has heard it, but will need to retreat against the oncoming occupying forces. More heavy weaponry doesnt help that.
I get where you are coming from but despite who is sending weapons to Ukraine if somehow Ukraine win (or more likely deny Russia a clear and decisive win) then I can only see that as victory against imperialism.

Of course that is easy for me to say siting in a cafe sipping my latte.

Fuck it I don't know anymore
 
I can't see how without military intervention from NATO and that can't happen. The outside hope is that they can hold on for long enough for the sanctions and other diplomatic efforts to take effect and weaken Vlad's will to continue, but the more that happens, the more must be the temptation to raze the place and get it over with. I think the tone of things is about to change from 'plucky Ukraine' to 'oh fuck, this is disastrous'.

The outside hope you describe is exactly what I'm hoping to happen.
 
Ripping the plaster off always seems like the best option to the outsider doing the ripping. It never seems like the best option to the patient who is being ripped.

To continue the analogy, it’s also torture taking it off bit by bit. But it’s not our wound and as much as we’d like to see Putin hanging from a lamppost, meddling has inadvertent consequences.
 
To lock-in a great price, would be my bet. If it's fully refundable it doesn't matter does it. If Ukraine do prevail here somehow, which seems highly unlikely, they'll need all the tourist cash they can get. However, I think May is far too optmistic. I might do similar for a weekend in September though.

If they would benefit from tourist cash you should be prising open that wallet and paying top dollar rather than going in like vultures to lock in a great price, ya pair of Scrooges.
 
To continue the analogy, it’s also torture taking it off bit by bit. But it’s not our wound and as much as we’d like to see Putin hanging from a lamppost, meddling has inadvertent consequences.

What's the not meddling position though?
 
To continue the analogy, it’s also torture taking it off bit by bit. But it’s not our wound and as much as we’d like to see Putin hanging from a lamppost, meddling has inadvertent consequences.
Best done in singe smooth motion at a moderate speed in my experience.
 
RE: The 40Km long column of Russian troops, armour etc. that's advancing on Kyiv, for a given value of "advancing".

Wasn't this one of the major mistakes that turned Arnhem into the clusterfuck that it became - sending a big force in essentially single file along a road?

I'm thinking there was also a case during the Six-day War of Israeli troops in Sinai who got early warning of a big Egyptian force moving on them, and who responded by shifting burnt out trucks, tanks, etc., on the battlefield into a v-formation, which channeled Nasser's people into a waiting trap.

"Amateur strategic analysis is the copium of the people".
 
I’ve booked a couple of days in a hotel near the beach in Odessa in May.
A cheap holiday etc...

It's bad enough the amount of shit Twitter links people have been posting on this thread without it becoming a discussion on people's plans for an edgy weekend break.
 
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Nothing anyone on here is saying affects anything. What's your point?
He wants me to 'condemn' Russia for no reason other than to satisfy some spurious need of his own then?

Stick to the point. Are we in favour of the no-fly zone and the high likelihood of our nuclear destruction or not?
 
I can't see how without military intervention from NATO and that can't happen. The outside hope is that they can hold on for long enough for the sanctions and other diplomatic efforts to take effect and weaken Vlad's will to continue, but the more that happens, the more must be the temptation to raze the place and get it over with. I think the tone of things is about to change from 'plucky Ukraine' to 'oh fuck, this is disastrous'.

Getting a bit armchair generally, but moving the capital to Lviv, abandoning Kharkiv, maybe Kyiv. Reinforcing what they have on the Dnieper. Lengthen Russian supply lines... Russia's own 'land war in Asia' tactics.

Whether any of that would be 'good', fuck knows.
 
RE: The 40Km long column of Russian troops, armour etc. that's advancing on Kyiv, for a given value of "advancing".

Wasn't this one of the major mistakes that turned Arnhem into the clusterfuck that it became - sending a big force in essentially single file along a road?

I'm thinking there was also a case during the Six-day War of Israeli troops in Sinai who got early warning of a big Egyptian force moving on them, and who responded by shifting burnt out trucks, tanks, etc., on the battlefield into a v-formation, which channeled Nasser's people into a waiting trap.

"Amateur strategic analysis is the copium of the people".
Thing is a doubt Ukraine has the capacity to make much of dent in a column that big. I am sure they are throwing whatever they can at it it just won't have much of an impact.
 
Er... I think he's giving you an opportunity to show you're not a total cunt?
I never said I fucking wasn't. In fact, further up the thread somewhere, I think I actually used the word to describe myself. Either way, it doesn't matter.
 
He wants me to 'condemn' Russia for no reason other than to satisfy some spurious need of his own then?

Stick to the point. Are we in favour of the no-fly zone and the high likelihood of our nuclear destruction or not?
You know this is a line people roll out when they don't want to say what they really think?

Which is up to you but doing this probably creates a worse impression than being honest.

Edit - or if you are unsure then say that lots of us are confused and uncertain that's the thing about real word events, they are a fucking mess
 
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