UK music industry, bands, work permits and Brexit

[pesh]

As far as the US goes the carnet is a piece of cake, it's the work visas that are the real nightmare. Japan isn't easy either but at least doesn't require an embassy visit.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Incidentally, it works both ways; when Sound Conspiracy drove their rig to Goa they got stuck at the Iranian border for 2 weeks whilst a few select Iranian customs officers listened to every one of their records to judge if they were un-Islamic of not

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

As far as the US goes the carnet is a piece of cake, it's the work visas that are the real nightmare. Japan isn't easy either but at least doesn't require an embassy visit.

Depends on what kind of tour the band is doing. Publicity + expenses only = no work visa required...

 

[pesh]

Might be able to blag a band thru like that, but not the crew, they're getting paid, they're working.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Depends on what kind of tour the band is doing. Publicity + expenses only = no work visa required...

This stuff can go badly wrong, though. Last year, a Japanese teacher was invited to the UK to take a seminar in the martial art I do. He was just getting expenses only. An elderly gentleman, around 70 years old, he was detained at the airport and questioned for two hours (he doesn't speak English), then he was sent straight back to Japan on the next plane when they decided he was here to work without a visa.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

This stuff can go badly wrong, though. Last year, a Japanese teacher was invited to the UK to take a seminar in the martial art I do. He was just getting expenses only. An elderly gentleman, around 70 years old, he was detained at the airport and questioned for two hours (he doesn't speak English), then he was sent straight back to Japan on the next plane when they decided he was here to work without a visa.

Ask editor, he's toured both in the past year...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ask editor, he's toured both in the past year...

I don't need to ask editor how things can go badly wrong even if you're not getting paid. I just told you how things can go badly wrong. It's also quite comparable because the reason they pulled him up was because he had a martial arts sword with him, for teaching with. Not so different from travelling with a guitar.

He had to pay for the flight he was sent back on, as well, just to add insult to the injury.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I don't need to ask editor how things can go badly wrong even if you're not getting paid. I just told you how things can go badly wrong. It's also quite comparable because the reason they pulled him up was because he had a martial arts sword with him, for teaching with. Not so different from travelling with a guitar.

He had to pay for the flight he was sent back on, as well, just to add insult to the injury.

Yeah, trying to cross a border carrying a sword is exactly the same as with a guitar

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, trying to cross a border carrying a sword is exactly the same as with a guitar

It indicates that you might be there to work. That's the point. There's no problem otherwise - I do it all the time.

 

[editor]

Doing travel for a motor-racing team pre-EU, they needed a carnet to attend Le Mans. Fill it out, show it to customs on the way in to France and again on the way out and so long as you take out everything you took in there was no issue. If they dumped their spent tyres at the track's tyre dump they would be charged import duty for those tyres. They only did that once...

This is the worst case scenario of what could happen after the transition period, a carnet to enter to the EU, which would have to be shown at point of entry and exit from the EU, not as the hysterical petition suggests crossing from one EU country to another. Will add around £150 to the cost of a tour for a band the size of editor's.

For many smaller bands, £150 is the difference between a tour being practical or staying at home. Bands can operate on really small budgets and don;t have wads of cash to throw around for official documents. And there can be far more to it then just whipping out a carnet to a nodding official in your optimistic scenario.

From my own pre-EU experience, you may be forced to empty out the entire contents of your van, while an officer then checks it against the carnet and quite possibly hopes to find some drugs or whatever because - hey! - we're work-shirking musicians and fair game for a bit of heavy manners from The Man (again, from experience).

The last time it happened, we nearly missed our gig so that would have put us massively into the minus.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It indicates that you might be there to work. That's the point. There's no problem otherwise - I do it all the time.

He most likely fucked up and said he was travelling for work rather than business. Happens to non-sword carriers too. There's a crucial difference between work and business in the mind of an immigration officer, one needs a working visa, the other doesn't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For many smaller bands, £150 is the difference between a tour being practical or staying at home. Bands can operate on really small budgets and don;t have wads of cash to throw around for official documents. And there can be far more to it then just whipping out a carnet to a nodding official in your optimistic scenario.

From my own pre-EU experience, you may be forced to empty out the entire contents of your van, while an officer then checks it against the carnet and quite possibly hopes to find some drugs or whatever because - hey! - we're work-shirking musicians and fair game for a bit of heavy manners from The Man (again, from experience).

The last time it happened, we nearly missed our gig so that would have put us massively into the minus.

Should never understimate the sheer stupidity of customs officers either. See my example above.

 

[editor]

As far as the US goes the carnet is a piece of cake, it's the work visas that are the real nightmare. Japan isn't easy either but at least doesn't require an embassy visit.

The US visas are a pain in the arse. You have to give up half a day (minimum) and personally go to the embassy to be fingerprinted, photographed and then interrogated in an interview, and then hand over a hefty wad of cash for the visa. You don't see your passport for anything up to a week or more after while this is being processed, so that can be a huge ballache for touring musicians.

 

[pesh]

Yeah, trying to cross a border carrying a sword is exactly the same as with a guitar

It's a fuck of a lot easier to import assault rifles than drum machines into Poland.

 

[editor]

Depends on what kind of tour the band is doing. Publicity + expenses only = no work visa required...

What would be the point of a band spending all that money going to America if they're not going to play a single note?
They could do the interviews via Skype at home.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

For man

From my own pre-EU experience, you may be forced to empty out the entire contents of your van, while an officer then checks it against the carnet and quite possibly hopes to find some drugs or whatever because - hey! - we're work-shirking musicians and fair game for a bit of heavy manners from The Man (again, from experience).

Happened to us all the time when we were in the EU and carting sound system equipment to and from the Schengen zone, we learned to live with it.

 

[editor]

Happened to us all the time when we were in the EU and carting sound system equipment to and from the Schengen zone, we learned to live with it.

That's nice for you. Were you paying for the carnets out of your own money?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He most likely fucked up and said he was travelling for work rather than business. Happens to non-sword carriers too. There's a crucial difference between work and business in the mind of an immigration officer, one needs a working visa, the other doesn't.

I don't know exactly what he said, but I don't doubt that he was naively honest and said he was there to teach at a seminar, and had been invited to do so. Given his lack of English that was probably enough. Of course the correct answer is that you are simply attending a seminar as part of your holiday (hence explaining the sword), but an elderly, ultra-respectable gentleman from Japan might not realise the game they are in.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

That's nice for you. Were you paying for the carnets out of your own money?

What bit of 'when we were in the EU' was beyond your comprehension?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I don't know exactly what he said, but I don't doubt that he was naively honest and said he was there to teach at a seminar, and had been invited to do so. Given his lack of English that was probably enough. Of course the correct answer is that you are simply attending a seminar as part of your holiday, but an elderly, ultra-respectable gentleman from Japan might not realise the game they are in.

The correct answer is to say that his Japanese institution is sending him to the UK to lecture at a seminar, the Japanese institution is paying his wages and all his associated costs for the trip.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The correct answer is to say that his Japanese institution is sending him to the UK to lecture at a seminar, the Japanese institution is paying his wages and all his associated costs for the trip.

Fair dos, yes that's even better (and does happen). Anyhow, he didn't give the correct answer.

Thing is that it can be easy to forget that some people are no good at this kind of thing. They naively think the truth will save them.

 

[editor]

What bit of 'when we were in the EU' was beyond your comprehension?

Oh I missed that. When was this then?

 

[editor]

Fair dos, yes that's even better (and does happen). Anyhow, he didn't give the correct answer.

Thing is that it can be easy to forget that some people are no good at this kind of thing. They naively think the truth will save them.

Some fairly unknown bands can sneak into America (and vice versa) by travelling separately and claiming they're on holiday, but if the authorities decide to start quizzing them (because they have a guitar or whatever), they can find themselves being put back on the plane.

It's a tremendous gamble and an expensive one too. I had a US guitarist who was going to play my Brixton night (unannounced) get sent straight back home from Heathrow.

Immigration had asked about his guitar, seen some of his DIY CDs, and then looked online to find he was booked to play a friend's party in a pub in Surrey. He wasn't getting paid - it was just a holiday for him - but it doesn't matter if you're being paid or not. I sincerely hope it doesn't end up like that for UK musicians playing Europe.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Oh I missed that. When was this then?

1994-2005

 

[mx wcfc]

I'm a big Attila fan, and he has been pretty vociferous about the issue of touring bands.

Here's a link to the NME's (yes, I know) comemtary.

I agree with Attila (tbf, I agree with Attila on a lot of things) The implications for bands are awful.

The EU have a "de minimis" concept, that just leaves small businesses out of things. The same thing is needed here. A simple, self assessed declaration that the artist/band employs fewer than 25 people and has gross assets of less than £200k should do it. Otherwise the whole thing breaks down.

I have though seen merch producers in the UK suggesting to European bands that they can get the merch made here, to get around this nonsense - presumably UK bands could travel to Europe and then pick up t-shirts and similar merch there.

Might not work with bigger bands, but for the DIYers, it could be the answer.

 

[editor]

Update and it's not good news:

EU touring artists will need visas to perform in the UK from 2021
Home Office pours cold water on artists’ hopes of retaining free movement between the UK and the EU.

LONDON — EU artists and entertainers will need visas to perform in the United Kingdom from January 2021, the Home Office has said.

The department announced Tuesday that artists and sports players from the EU would be subject to the same rules that currently apply to their non-EU peers once the Brexit transition comes to an end in December.

At the moment, artists and their crews can travel freely from the EU to the U.K. and vice versa without applying for work permits or visas. But once freedom of movement ends, both EU and non-EU artists will need a Tier 5 visa in order to perform in the U.K., take part in competitions or auditions, participate in promotional activities, attend workshops, give talks about their work, and take part in cultural events or festivals.

With this announcement, briefly mentioned in a policy paper, the Home Office has poured cold water on the hopes of the British live industry to achieve reciprocal arrangements between the U.K. and the EU that resemble freedom of movement as much as possible, enabling artists to continue to move around with their instruments and merchandising without facing extra paperwork or costs. Music industry groups in the U.K. had called for a two-year working visa to allow artists to travel freely around the EU and the U.K. for work.

Deborah Annetts, chief executive of the Incorporated Society of Musicians, said they are “deeply disappointed” that free movement for musicians and other artists from the EU has been ruled out.

“We would ask the U.K. government to reconsider our call for a two-year, multi-entry visa,” she said. “Any future immigration system does not exist in isolation and has huge implications for the negotiation of EU and U.S. trade deals and reciprocal arrangements. It is vital that any immigration system supports musicians who will need to tour in the EU post-Brexit.”

EU touring artists will need visas to perform in the UK from 2021

Home Office pours cold water on artists’ hopes of retaining free movement between the UK and the EU.

www.politico.eu

 

[Saul Goodman]

Shite for them isn't it, travelling to and performing in a non-EU country. I wonder if it'll be easier or harder for non-musicians... Or the same.

 

[editor]

So here's how it's shaping up. Visas will cost £244 and artists will also need a sponsor and £1,000 in savings. Taxation and the cost of transporting equipment and merchandise will also rise, making crossing the channel ‘completely unviable’ for new and mid-level artists.

I've put on quite a few foreign bands in various venues and it's fucking heartbreaking that Brexit will stop many of them ever returning.

Musicians from outside the UK will need to apply for a visa and pay to perform in the country from 2021, the Home Office has confirmed.

In a post-Brexit shake up of the current rules, EU and non-EU based creatives who wish to travel to the UK must prove they have nearly £1000 in savings in their account some 90 days before applying for the visa. The huge sum is considered to be proof that they can support themselves, unless they are already “fully approved (‘A-rated’)”.

In contrast, current rules allow artists and their crews to travel to the UK without restrictions and without applying for a work permit or visa.

Artists will need a Tier 5 visa to visit the UK for work – encompassing performances, auditions, workshops, festival appearances, talks and events. It is expected to cost £244 and will come into force in January 2021, following the end of the Brexit transition period in December 2020.

Non-UK musicians will need visa to perform in the country from 2021

Musicians from outside the UK will need to apply for a visa and pay to perform in the country from 2021, the Home Office has confirmed.

www.nme.com

 

[Marty1]

The Incorporated Society of Musicians is laying into Priti Patel.

Priti Patel warned her immigration crackdown will ‘cut the legs off’ the UK music industry — The Independent

Priti Patel’s immigration crackdown will “cut the legs off” the thriving UK music industry, a leading figure has said, warning that artists will be forced to cancel tours and small venues will be put in jeopardy.

apple.news

 

[skyscraper101]

The current law already fucks over many artists performing at Womad. It's such a shambles.