UK music industry, bands, work permits and Brexit

[William of Walworth]

editor 's post liked for the information, not for the content obviously.

My immediate thought is how much festivals will also surely be affected ---WOMAD and similar events most obviously, and they've already had some trouble with the Home Office in recent years. ETA : as mentioned just above, good point skyscraper101

But will it get to the point where even a fest as big as Glastonbury will have fewer and fewer non-UK performers?? And that would be from a base where Glastonbury currently has a highish percentage of UK acts anyway.

Still, any restrictions on variety of performance can only be bad thing

 

[editor]

editor 's post liked for the information, not for the content obviously.

My immediate thought is how much festivals will also surely be affected ---WOMAD and similar events most obviously, but will it get to the point where even a fest as big as Glastonbury will have fewer and fewer non-UK performers?? And that would be from a base where Glastonbury currently has a pretty high percentage of UK acts anyway. Still, any restrictions on variety of performance can only be bad thing

I imagine it will hit the smaller festivals hardest of all, plus pubs and small venues who put on non-UK acts. Some of the best bands I put on at my night were from Europe, but the new rules will almost certainly make it completely untenable for them to play the UK. It's like culture is going fucking backwards.

 

[William of Walworth]

Yes, very fair point on the small fests and events and gigs. I know one or two organisers at that level, gig and fest, and their language has already been choice and fruity on FB.

I suppose I was (not very clearly ) making the point though that it will most likely affect events at all levels on the scale, up to and including WOMAD and the Pilton Megafest

 

[editor]

Blistering stuff:

Priti Patel’s immigration crackdown will “cut the legs off” the thriving UK music industry, a leading figure says, warning artists will be forced to cancel tours and small venues put in jeopardy.

In a blistering attack, the Incorporated Society of Musicians says the Home Office has turned its back on the creative arts worth £111bn a year to the economy – similar to banking – and refused to listen to its pleas for help.

“Enormous” numbers of bands from EU countries will be shut out by the huge cost and frightening bureaucracy of performing, dealing a hammer blow to the venues that host them, it says.

And UK artists will also feel the pain if Brussels slaps similar restrictions on tours to EU countries, in the post-Brexit trade talks that are already turning ugly.

“This is taking a shotgun and shooting ourselves in the foot,” the Society’s furious chief executive, Deborah Annetts, told The Independent.

The harsh new rules come despite the culture minister promising to shelter the creative industries from Brexit, saying: “It’s absolutely essential that free movement for artists is protected post-2020.”

Instead, in just 10 months’ time, anyone from the EU seeking to perform will need to:

* Apply for a visa to enter the UK, at a cost of £244 for each group member.

* Provide proof, 90 days before applying, that they have nearly £1,000 in savings and so can support themselves, unless they are ‘A-rated’.

* Provide a certificate of sponsorship from an event organiser - who must take responsibility for them - or a letter of invitation in some circumstances.

Priti Patel warned her immigration crackdown will 'cut the legs off' the UK music industry

Home Office accused of refusing to listen to £111bn-a-year culture sector – just weeks after a minister admitted government must retain free movement

www.independent.co.uk

 

[scifisam]

Funny, a few years ago open borders was argued for, vociferously. If you disagree with that you were some kind of Little Englander, or racis. Now it’s all about respect the referendum, close borders, who gives a fuck about musicians.

Yeah. It is strange that in an effort to defend Brexit some people are saying fuck low-income musicians who want to be able to do their job and build up a reputation that eventually makes them successful or at least pays their costs. And that does require travelling to other countries sometimes. But if they're not fruit-pickers or factory workers then somehow they're bourgeoisie, according to some people on here, who are also not fruit-pickers or factory workers.

This despite the fact that making it more difficult for musicians to tour puts music as a job even more firmly into the hands of those who already have money.

 

[redsquirrel]

Who are the people saying the above?

 

[scifisam]

Who are the people saying the above?

Oh come on.

 

[redsquirrel]

Who? I've seem some sarky comments about musicians (mostly contrasting this with much bigger issues) but I've not seen anything that resembles

But if they're not fruit-pickers or factory workers then somehow they're bourgeoisie, according to some people on here, who are also not fruit-pickers or factory workers.

 

[scifisam]

Who? I've seem some sarky comments about musicians (mostly contrasting this with much bigger issues) but I've not seen anything that resembles

This whole thread has been about editor saying it's going to be more difficult for bands to tour and people taking the piss out of him for it, and bringing up major bands as if that's who he's talking about. Contrasting it with bigger issues is denigrating the issues for small bands, despite the fact that the thread was about bands, not about Brexit in general, for which we have about fifty other threads.

I was using hyerbole, but there has definitely been a fuck the musicians tone about most of the posts, and they're mostly from people who are in favour of Brexit for left-wing reasons.

 

[redsquirrel]

Then give some names, give some examples.

The person who has made the most personal attacks on the editor has not (to my recollection) every made an argument in "favour of Brexit for left-wing reasons". Most of the other criticism of the editor's position has been that it is both inconsistent and hyperbolic. There's been nothing about about how musicians are "bourgeoisie".

 

[editor]

Most of the other criticism of the editor's position has been that it is both inconsistent and hyperbolic.

In what sense, exactly? Most, if not all, of my posts have been reflecting the opinion of other musicians and unions, and supported by links back to the original articles. In fact, as time has gone on, the realities of what Brexit will mean for musicians has become worse than what I stated.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I think we just have to play it by ear and all that jazz. It may seem with the musician unions etc that everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet, but some people march to the beat of their own drum. Good luck and that though, it isn't over until the fat lady sings. But best to make sure it strikes a chord or that you're not preaching to the choir, or people will think you're a broken record and ask you to change your tune

 

[editor]

It's not just bands that are going to get shafted by this:

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Who? I've seem some sarky comments about musicians (mostly contrasting this with much bigger issues) but I've not seen anything that resembles

Come off it. That's been the general tone of this and a lot of other conversations on here about the people who are directly negatively affected by brexit. Anyone posting about EU citizens being forced to register themselves as residents has met with a stream of responses seeking to minimise its importance, including some shameful rubbish that boils down to 'trust the authorities' that I would not expect to see on here. And it's been the same here - it'll just be a minor inconvenience, you're putting things out of perspective, something'll be sorted. And worse, 'editor thinks he's a rock star...' Really shameful shit that is, regardless of the way editor may argue points on here sometimes.

That's the thing about Brexit (so far). It's not one big negative thing that it causes. It's a thousand smaller negative things, many of which will only affect a minority of people. And still nobody to my knowledge has cited a single positive that will directly affect anyone in this process.

 

[Wilf]

It's not just bands that are going to get shafted by this:

Is there a chance that this is all posturing and that something less drastic will emerge from the transition period? Genuine Q as they say, I'm not very clear as to where individual bits of policy like this fit into the bigger future trade agreement.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is there a chance that this is all posturing and that something less drastic will emerge from the transition period? Genuine Q as they say, I'm not very clear as to where individual bits of policy like this fit into the bigger future trade agreement.

Of course there is a chance something less drastic will emerge. See also reciprocal health insurance arrangements, mobile roaming charges, holiday visas, student visas, etc, etc, etc. But as with all the things that are put in jeopardy by the end of free movement, there is no possibility of things being as good as they are now. It's a case of how much we lose. And a case of having to fight your corner to minimise any losses in each instance.

Maybe someone can remind us why this is happening again? What is it for?

 

[elbows]

Maybe someone can remind us why this is happening again? What is it for?

Decades of failure of the political and economic ideology that was in ascendance to deliver gains for certain groups in anything resembling a fair and just manner.

Decades of shit media doing its part to misdirect the frustration and anger.

People looking for hope in the wrong places.

Insecurities that were deliberately fostered for the economic gain of the few coming home to roost.

The wrong changes at the wrong pace, delivered with no care and the destruction of communities.

 

[editor]

Decades of failure of the political and economic ideology that was in ascendance to deliver gains for certain groups in anything resembling a fair and just manner.

Decades of shit media doing its part to misdirect the frustration and anger.

People looking for hope in the wrong places.

Insecurities that were deliberately fostered for the economic gain of the few coming home to roost.

The wrong changes at the wrong pace, delivered with no care and the destruction of communities.

And Brexit will fix all this, how?

 

[elbows]

And Brexit will fix all this, how?

I do not claim it will. I was explaining some of the why. I missed out plenty, like dodgy nostalgia combining with the unpleasant results of a system where “Politics is the art of preventing people from busying themselves with what is their own business.”

I didnt vote for Brexit. The 'for' does not look pleasant in the short-term. I have no longer term predictions, the world is in too much of a mess. But thats partly why I take my stance as regards the why, I do not judge Brexit in isolation, it is a sign of the times. And those times involve a failure to fill the ideological vacuum that emerged post financial crisis, when neoliberalism failed to even bother pretending that it had some great new gains left to offer the everyman.

 

[Wilf]

And Brexit will fix all this, how?

It won't, of course. But then it's not my/our process, it's not something that was packed with real choices for voters, it was a thing to react to. And in large part its landed in the lap of johnson and cummings, through the complete idiocies of Labour and their brexit policy. And here we are. But that doesn't make the EU any less a racist bureaucracy, any less an institution that should be seen as our enemy, not some kind of 'defender'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Decades of failure of the political and economic ideology that was in ascendance to deliver gains for certain groups in anything resembling a fair and just manner.

Decades of shit media doing its part to misdirect the frustration and anger.

People looking for hope in the wrong places.

Insecurities that were deliberately fostered for the economic gain of the few coming home to roost.

The wrong changes at the wrong pace, delivered with no care and the destruction of communities.

See this is hand-wavy. No specifics, and brexit could make all of those things worse, particularly given the govt that is enacting it and the political ideology that it represents. I can point at specific people and say that ending free movement hurts them, and detail the exact way in which that happens. None of the above explains what it is for.

 

[elbows]

See this is hand-wavy. No specifics, and brexit could make all of those things worse, particularly given the govt that is enacting it and the political ideology that it represents. I can point at specific people and say that ending free movement hurts them, and detail the exact way in which that happens. None of the above explains what it is for.

Hand wavey is a somewhat inevitable consequence of decades of empty liberal hand-wringey. Let them eat platitudes was no longer enough.

 

[elbows]

And no, putting all the emphasis on those who actually voted for Brexit is entirely insufficient.

Instead consider the conditions which enabled the vote to go the way it did. The mainstream failed. Over a very long period of time, in ways that were overt and obvious. Apologists for that shit, who allowed things to reach that point, may have no intention of shouldering any blame. I doubt history will end up letting them off the hook.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hand wavey is a somewhat inevitable consequence of decades of empty liberal hand-wringey. Let them eat platitudes was no longer enough.

Ending free movement wasn't on the ballot paper. It has come to represent 'true brexit' because a particular form of populist nationalism has won with brexit. And a bunch of people will be fucked over as a result.

Also, casting the EU as the bogeyman in this process is historically inaccurate. The EU didn't force Thatcher to do what she did, nor Cameron what he did. If anything the tories did their best to create the EU in their image, not the reverse. At the governmental level, it's like the school bully refusing to go to class cos of all the violence, choosing instead to stay at home and beat up his siblings.

Point being that this is a process to be opposed, regardless of how you might have voted in the referendum.

 

[elbows]

Ending free movement wasn't on the ballot paper.

None of the detail or implications were on the ballot paper.

A bunch of young people I knew at work at the time certainly understood the implications. They voted to remain, and limits to their own freedom of movement was one of their biggest concerns once the result came out. One of them was even a musician who enjoyed doing some gigs overseas.

They feared for the future, so do I. I do not know how their attitudes have evolved since then because I dont work there anymore.

I do not intend to lump all remainer reaction into one category. But to my mind, a certain form of remainer complaint, heard long after the vote, contained within it many of the clues as to how we ended up in this situation in the first place. People who assume they are reasonable and know best, but whose failure to actually make the right difference to the 'wrong' people over decades of economic policy, tendency towards becoming apologists for 'hard choices' (conveniently harder for some other group), justifiers of unreasonable burden (someone elses burden), leaves them culpable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A bunch of young people I knew at work at the time certainly understood the implications. They voted to remain, and limits to their own freedom of movement was one of their biggest concerns once the result came out.

A lot of people feared all the things that are now happening at the time of the ref. Yet lots of people proudly proclaim that they voted leave and would do so again. Why? What for? With what aim in mind? I can't stand all the 'gammon' stuff that's being thrown around, but I also struggle to understand many people's seeming indifference towards the concrete negatives of this thing.

 

[Steel Icarus]

And still the old "they didn't know what they were voting for"

 

[elbows]

For the avoidance of doubt, let me be clear that I do not lump all remainers together. I voted to remain myself.

So I am not, for example, accusing remains of u75 of the stuff I said in previous post, although there are bound to be a few exceptions. Think more along the lines of some of the worst of remoaner medleys delivered by the likes of the Guardian. At least now that the first waves of that lost their energy after the general election, we can at least now focus on very specific complaints by remainers, very specific risks, trade negotiation risks, policy risks. And indeed not just remainers, everyone else can join in with those complaints when the time comes and the implications dawn on people.

So yeah, when it comes to the 'what is it for', at this stage we are actually on a similar page, albeit for somewhat different reasons.

A lot of people feared all the things that are now happening at the time of the ref. Yet lots of people proudly proclaim that they voted leave and would do so again. Why? What for? With what aim in mind? I can't stand all the 'gammon' stuff that's being thrown around, but I also struggle to understand many people's seeming indifference towards the concrete negatives of this thing.

Various reasons. Some will be worn out and for that and other reasons are more likely to just wait and see. Things you have determined to be concrete may not yet seem concrete to them, they will need to experience these things before going there. And indifference is hardly a surprise, especially as it is traditionally encouraged by our political systems. And then there are those for whom, regardless of whether we label them gammon or racist, percieve some of these 'concrete negatives' as being positives that are exactly what they were looking for from Brexit in the first place!

 

[elbows]

'what is it for?' also contains some very exciting prospects, especially over the long term if there is a change in political direction in this country.

It is unlikely I will start waxing lyrical about such matters now, because of all the possible downsides, and the ways these could completely negate any upsides. It is possible to catch a glimpse of some of them when stuff like the points based immigration system system are discussed in the news, as in recent weeks, but of course many downsides are also on display when it comes to this sort of thing. All the same, answers to 'what is it for' are visible there.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And still the old "they didn't know what they were voting for"

No. That is a total misrepresentation of what I said. I am asking directly what people think this process, this thing that is actually happening, is for. You might know what it is you voted for. Presumably it wasn't this. I would sincerely hope so. Maybe, just maybe, you might reflect that perhaps you made a bit of a miscalculation back in 2016.

Very sadly, I think the majority who voted tory last year had a very good idea of what they were voting for. Fucked up state we are in.