Turning Point UK / TPUK WTAF?

[Sasaferrato]

how would you neutrally teach about the third reich? would you proceed by saying 'the third reich did some awful things but let's not proceed without trying to understand their point of view'?

Well, if you understand the Third Reich, please enlighten me. It is something I have been trying to understand for decades.

I lived in Germany for seven years, and knew many German people. Trying to 'equate' their attitude to that of their ancestors who sent my ancestors to the camps wasn't difficult, it was impossible.

The teaching of WWII history seems to be being done sensitively, from what I gather from my grandson.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, if you understand the Third Reich, please enlighten me. It is something I have been trying to understand for decades.

I lived in Germany for seven years, and knew many German people. Trying to 'equate' their attitude to that of their ancestors who sent my ancestors to the camps wasn't difficult, it was impossible.

The teaching of WWII history seems to be being done sensitively, from what I gather from my grandson.

sensitively. but not, i suspect, neutrally.

 

[Pickman's model]

Wow.

well may you hang your head in shame.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Oh I understand your point.

I'm questioning whether it's

a)possible
B)desirable

Yes and yes. However, if as an educator, you tell me it isn't possible, so be it. I'm old enough to know that we rarely get what we wish in life.

 

[chilango]

Physics - creationism and the conflict between religion and science.
Chemistry - fuck knows,.big pharma? Certainly at research level.
Biology - climate change, GMOs, etc
Maths - there was a row in the States recently about the maths curriculum being racist. I didn't read up on it, so couldn't tell you more than politicizes disputes do exist.

...and that's just looking at content and taking into account context.

Who is taught?
Who is teaching?
Where?
When?
How?
Why?

All inherently political questions.

 

[Sasaferrato]

sensitively. but not, i suspect, neutrally.

Seems to be, in that it is factual. Given the subject though, the facts guide the student in the right direction.

It is perhaps the only period of history that really interests the lad, because of the family history.

 

[Shechemite]

back when worked in early years (working with 4-5 year olds) we (the staff) were obligated to have posters up around the room on ‘British values’ and to integrate this nonsense into our activity planning

oh, and to spot signs of radicalisation (just in case we had any kindergarten extremists on our hands)

 

[Shechemite]

Then, again, when I was doing GCSEs and then A-levels there were a fair few Swaps in amongst the teaching staff.

they were all wankers needless to say

 

[chilango]

Yes and yes. However, if as an educator, you tell me it isn't possible, so be it. I'm old enough to know that we rarely get what we wish in life.

If it's not possible, then whether it's desirable becomes moot.

The question then becomes more interesting.

How do we best address the presence of bias and subjectivity in education?

I would argue that it is a resource that skilled educators and academics could, and should, use.

 

[Sasaferrato]

...and that's just looking at content and taking into account context.

Who is taught?
Who is teaching?
Where?
When?
How?
Why?

All inherently political questions.

Ye gods! Things in physics have certainly moved on since I were a lad. Mind you, I'm not sure if creationism was even a thing then.

Apologies, whereas I certainly favour neutrality, and always will, I can understand that changes in the way education is delivered are such that my direct experience is no longer relevant.

 

[chilango]

Just for fun.

I've worked (or studied) in education almost all of my life.

I've worked in about 9 or 10 schools, met literally thousands of teachers and can count the number of "Marxists" I've encountered amongst these staff on one hand (4 to be exact). Probably reasonably representative of the wider population.

I've studied at 6 or 7 Universities and, again, the numbers of far-left academics I've encountered is tiny. Probably still in the single figures.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seems to be, in that it is factual. Given the subject though, the facts guide the student in the right direction.

It is perhaps the only period of history that really interests the lad, because of the family history.

oh dear

the same set of facts persuaded the argentines that they should have the falkland islands and the british that they had a better claim to the malvinas.

 

[brogdale]

Just for fun.

I've worked (or studied) in education almost all of my life.

I've worked in about 9 or 10 schools, met literally thousands of teachers and can count the number of "Marxists" I've encountered amongst these staff on one hand (4 to be exact). Probably reasonably representative of the wider population.

I've studied at 6 or 7 Universities and, again, the numbers of far-left academics I've encountered is tiny. Probably still in the single figures.

Likewise.
Certainly came across more tory twats and frankly dangerous christos than actual Marxists.

 

[chilango]

Likewise.
Certainly came across more tory twats and frankly dangerous christos than actual Marxists.

Yep.

Like the evangelical Xtian delivering PSHE who believed women could only get pregnant if they orgasmed.

Or the teacher delivering PSHE who thought that "asylum seekers should claim asylum in their own country".

 

[Sasaferrato]

If it's not possible, then whether it's desirable becomes moot.

The question then becomes more interesting.

How do we best address the presence of bias and subjectivity in education?

I would argue that it is a resource that skilled educators and academics could, and should, use.

Bias in education I should imagine mirrors bias in the rest of society. How you sort that, God alone knows.

 

[Pickman's model]

Likewise.
Certainly came across more tory twats and frankly dangerous christos than actual Marxists.

i applied to birmingham university when i was 18, and was invited for an interview. the tutor had a picture of karl marx on the inside of his door.

i didn't go there. but that had more to do with the shitty offer they gave me than anything else.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bias in education I should imagine mirrors bias in the rest of society. How you sort that, God alone knows.

by acknowledging it.

 

[brogdale]

Yep.

Like the evangelical Xtian delivering PSHE who believed women could only get pregnant if they orgasmed.

Or the teacher delivering PSHE who thought that "asylum seekers should claim asylum in their own country".

Yep, but we won't hear our resident bridge-dwellers concerning themselves about such instances of indoctrination.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Just for fun.

I've worked (or studied) in education almost all of my life.

I've worked in about 9 or 10 schools, met literally thousands of teachers and can count the number of "Marxists" I've encountered amongst these staff on one hand (4 to be exact). Probably reasonably representative of the wider population.

I've studied at 6 or 7 Universities and, again, the numbers of far-left academics I've encountered is tiny. Probably still in the single figures.

Why then does the profession have the reputation (note: I did not state that it is) of being left wing? Good (or bad depending on your view) PR campaign by someone?

 

[Sasaferrato]

by acknowledging it.

I do. I am one though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why then does the profession have the reputation (note: I did not state that it has) of being left wing? Good (or bad depending on your view) PR campaign by someone?

because the right-wing press, who see everything to their left as left, have farted on about it for many, many years.

 

[Pickman's model]

I do. I am one though.

but you're not, you're demanding that there be no political bias in education when state education (as the name would suggest) is as inherently biased as anything provided by the private sector.

 

[Sasaferrato]

oh dear

the same set of facts persuaded the argentines that they should have the falkland islands and the british that they had a better claim to the malvinas.

If Argentina ever gets its act together and retakes the islands, they will keep them. We don't have the wherewithal to do anything about it. I've been invited to go down there in 2022, which will be the 40th anniversary. Too far, and I don't want to awaken memories that took me a long time to get rid of.

 

[Sasaferrato]

because the right-wing press, who see everything to their left as left, have farted on about it for many, many years.

Successful propaganda then, It's almost getting to the point where you won't have to preface 'press' with 'right wing'. There isn't much left press left.

 

[Sasaferrato]

but you're not, you're demanding that there be no political bias in education when state education (as the name would suggest) is as inherently biased as anything provided by the private sector.

I am 'demanding' nothing, I am asking.

 

[Proper Tidy]

If maths is politically neutral, how come I knew my maths teacher was a tory nonce (literal, not for emphasis)

 

[brogdale]

Why then does the profession have the reputation (note: I did not state that it is) of being left wing? Good (or bad depending on your view) PR campaign by someone?

Like any other facet of false consciousness, it suits the interests of power/capital.
Those presuming to govern us in the interests of capital are naturally suspicious and incredulous of those in public service who place a relatively low importance on remuneration or prefer to avoid the compensation associated with socially harmful/exploitative work; they must be raving lefties to do that. What could possibly be their motivation...if it weren't the indoctrination of our young?
It's also useful to the capitalist state to have at least one 'explanation' of why the young so insistently reject the regressive nastiness of the right parties of capital; if only it weren't for those damned Marxist teachers, our young-folk would be fine up-standing supporters of enterprise...
Added to which it offers right-wing twats an easy, convenient wedge issue for their pathetic 'culture wars'.
Seems like you might have bought all that shit?

 

[chilango]

 

[Pickman's model]

I am 'demanding' nothing, I am asking.

The difference is merely semantic

 

[two sheds]

Apart from everything else discussed above, anyone expecting a neutral political (or any other) view from a scientologist like John Mappin (Mappin & Webb jewellery dynasty) who's heavily involved is fucking deluded.